Catelyn Stark was right, about basically everything

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Also, there is a difference between trusting a man to care for your wife & children vs trusting a man to do defeat his enemy in battle. There was no reason to question Roose's loyalty or his battle skills. I'll agree they shouldn't have been leaving someone like Roose to baby sit but he was well suited for the job he was given. 

Please name me a banner that's half as evil as the flayed man, bonus points if it's from a lord who's actually a decent person? Maybe George should have picked a murdered puppy for his banner, if he wanted to make this more obvious for us.

Gregor is possibly the worst possible human in the series. I don't recall Tywin, ever giving such a man control of half his army. He usually uses that man, whenever he needs people raped or babies killed. Possibly killing some innocent people as well for "supplies".

[sifth]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 

Right and the Umbers have a banner of a screaming giant breaking chains

Which still isn't half as evil, as a main being skinned alive. Truth be told, the only banner that comes close to being as evil, is Slynt and his bloody spear; but I'd still call a man skinned alive to be worse, in my book.

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Please name me a banner that's half as evil as the flayed man, bonus points if it's from a lord who's actually a decent person? Maybe George should have picked a murdered puppy for his banner, if he wanted to make this more obvious for us.

Gregor is possibly the worst possible human in the series. I don't recall Tywin, ever giving such a man control of half his army. He usually uses that man, whenever he needs people raped or babies killed. Possibly killing some innocent people as well for "supplies".

The banner has been around for literally millennia. I can see readers perhaps being warned by it a bit, but Robb doesn’t know he’s in a novel. I don’t at all see how you are expecting him to know that the sigil chosen thousands of years ago was all leading to this moment, and so far as we know the Bolton have been ‘peaceful and quiet’ for centuries. That means lots of Lords of the Dreadfort…with that sigil…did nothing, betrayed no one, so far as the outside world knows. 
 

But there are sigils with hanged men, a few with skulls a la SS, giants breaking their chains which, again, if Umber rebels, seems portentous in hindsight, and I mean…tons of man eating predators including their version of nukes, sea monsters, skeletons, devices of torture, drowned corpses, a vulture with a fucking baby in it’s talons, snakes biting people, and not one but two with fucking turtles! 
 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by James Arryn

[Craving Peaches]

34 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

The banner has been around for literally millennia. I can see readers perhaps being warned by it a bit, but Robb doesn’t know he’s in a novel. I don’t at all see how you are expecting him to know that the sigil chosen thousands of years ago was all leading to this moment, and so far as we know the Bolton have been ‘peaceful and quiet’ for centuries. That means lots of Lords of the Dreadfort…with that sigil…did nothing, betrayed no one, so far as the outside works knows. 
 

But there are sigils with hanged men, a few with skulls a la SS, giants breaking their chains which, again, if Umber rebels, seems portentous in hindsight, and I mean…tons of man eating predators including their version of nukes, sea monsters, skeletons, devices of torture, drowned corpses, a vulture with a fucking baby in it’s talons, snakes biting people, and not one but two with fucking turtles! 
 

 

IRL Benin's flag for a while was a man chopping another man's head off but it doesn't seem to have had a major impact on their diplomacy....

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

IRL Benin's flag for a while was a man chopping another man's head off but it doesn't seem to have had a major impact on their diplomacy....

Yeah, and there are tons with weapons only used for violence against people, etc. The idea was to seem dangerous. Personally I like them, but I also get the feudal Japanese mon thinking, and from that POV a sigil like the Tyrell rose is much more significant; putting scary monsters or weapons or w/e from their point of view was childish, and as such had the opposite effect from design. Ie, if you seem to be trying too hard to be scary, that doesn’t frighten people with legit experience with war an violence, it actually makes you seem weaker. If it’s important to you that people find you scary, that means you are trying to avoid conflict, that’s bordering on cowardice. From their pov an actually brave man doesn’t care if you’re scared of him or not, let alone by a picture he wears. He knows he’s deadly and if you test him, so will you. 
 

Neither is right or wrong, of course, just a matter of culture/taste. But it’s ironic that the impression people get is sort of inverted from feudal Japan and…you don’t get much more bloody and violent than sengoku jidai Japanese clan wars, armies, battles and killings on a scale Europeans of the time would have found unbelievable…to say nothing about collecting heads, so it’s not like they don’t know what they’re talking about or are soft or w/e. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by James Arryn

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

and I mean…tons of man-eating predators including their version of nukes, sea monsters, skeletons, devices of torture, drowned corpses, a vulture with a fucking baby in it’s talons, snakes biting people, and not one but two with fucking turtles! 

I'm sorry but I can't stop laughing about the last part

[Nevets]

I think at the start Bolton was perfectly loyal.  But when the good ship Stark got holes punched in it and began to sink he started looking for a way out.  Winterfell falling to Theon was bad enough, but Robb's marriage, which incensed the Freys, probably pushed him to jump ship, and the rout of Stannis at the Blackwater made it clear that Robb's cause was likely doomed.  Roose is a fair weather friend.  Start losing and he'll bail in a hurry.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think at the start Bolton was perfectly loyal.  But when the good ship Stark got holes punched in it and began to sink he started looking for a way out.  Winterfell falling to Theon was bad enough, but Robb's marriage, which incensed the Freys, probably pushed him to jump ship, and the rout of Stannis at the Blackwater made it clear that Robb's cause was likely doomed.  Roose is a fair weather friend.  Start losing and he'll bail in a hurry.

This

as grmm himself said had  tywins scouts not picked him up be could have ended the war at green fork!

There's of course the grey area with ramsay and lady hornwood. We do hear of fighting with manderlys and bolton men  on her land so clearly  both sides where taking advantage of house hornwoods weakness for some sneaky land  expansion . We can assume roose told him to press for house bolton, maybe get some profitable lands or land the marriage at winterfell under bran..... but he probably disnt instruct ramsay to go as far as he did!!! 

Edited July 21, 2023 by astarkchoice

[frenin]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:25 PM, BlackLightning said:

I think it's both a case of Martin pulling it out of his ass and Jon reflecting on Roose's untrustworthiness in hindsight.

I don't think Jon fabricated that memory.

 

On 7/20/2023 at 5:25 PM, BlackLightning said:

I think it's worth pointing out that Ned Stark and his House are not universally beloved or respected.

I know, Ned only openly distrusts one of his Lords, that is Roose Bolton.

It is nonsensical Cat and Robb did not have this info, and they didn't, so i'll chalk it to Martn's gardener approach.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

23 hours ago, sifth said:

Please name me a banner that's half as evil as the flayed man, bonus points if it's from a lord who's actually a decent person? Maybe George should have picked a murdered puppy for his banner, if he wanted to make this more obvious for us.

Gregor is possibly the worst possible human in the series. I don't recall Tywin, ever giving such a man control of half his army. He usually uses that man, whenever he needs people raped or babies killed. Possibly killing some innocent people as well for "supplies".

I don't know all the banners, I'm just saying a flayed man on a banner doesn't mean much. Especially since we know the Bolton's of old flayed people (obviously they still do but it's hidden now). 

Of course he doesn't give Gregor control of half of his army, Gregor wouldn't be good at that. The point I was making is that even evil men have their uses. 

Just out of curiosity what do you think Robb should have done with Roose? He had given him zero reason to distrust him, regardless of what you think the banner indicates. He could hardly refuse his army & his help. He used him just like Tywin uses Gregor, he put him in a position he was likely to do well in & Roose is more than capable. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I know, Ned only openly distrusts one of his Lords, that is Roose Bolton.

How openly can it be if only Jon speaks on it? Surely, if Cat & Robb were told it would have come up in the conversation regarding what task to give Roose. 

[frenin]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

How openly can it be if only Jon speaks on it? Surely, if Cat & Robb were told it would have come up in the conversation regarding what task to give Roose. 

Openly among the family members.

And yes, the fact that Jon was aware that Eddard didn't trust Roose but Eddard's wife and heir weren't is Martin just adding unnecessary elements that just make plot points harder to swallow.

 

There was no hint of any animosity between either side.

[astarkchoice]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know all the banners, I'm just saying a flayed man on a banner doesn't mean much. Especially since we know the Bolton's of old flayed people (obviously they still do but it's hidden now). 

Of course he doesn't give Gregor control of half of his army, Gregor wouldn't be good at that. The point I was making is that even evil men have their uses. 

Just out of curiosity what do you think Robb should have done with Roose? He had given him zero reason to distrust him, regardless of what you think the banner indicates. He could hardly refuse his army & his help. He used him just like Tywin uses Gregor, he put him in a position he was likely to do well in & Roose is more than capable. 

This

The boltons havent been rebellious in centuries and when robb called the banners  bar the manderlys few if any  other houses will have contributed so many men to the cause as the boltons. For all the talk of his odd  mannerisms might unnnerve robb  the fact is  bolton is the master of the roughly  3rd strongest house in the north hence why his name came up as one of the frontrunners to lead the  army  in robbs absence.

I mean its hard to doubt the mans loyalty when you look out at your army and see so much of it has  the flayed man flying.

Edited July 21, 2023 by astarkchoice

[sifth]

37 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know all the banners, I'm just saying a flayed man on a banner doesn't mean much. Especially since we know the Bolton's of old flayed people (obviously they still do but it's hidden now). 

Of course he doesn't give Gregor control of half of his army, Gregor wouldn't be good at that. The point I was making is that even evil men have their uses. 

Just out of curiosity what do you think Robb should have done with Roose? He had given him zero reason to distrust him, regardless of what you think the banner indicates. He could hardly refuse his army & his help. He used him just like Tywin uses Gregor, he put him in a position he was likely to do well in & Roose is more than capable. 

He should have kept him close, maybe set him out to plunder the people of the West, with only his own men under his command. He did nothing that proved he was trust worthy enough to control half of Robb’s army.

Giving that much freedom to a man who looks evil, has a banner that’s evil, a family history that’s also evil and you’re father never trusted because in secret he was evil, is just not knowing how to read people. 
 

At least with the Freys, George gave us a few who were very kind and decent people. George gave us the readers no reason to trust Roose from the second he showed up in the story. The kindest thing he does is make Arya a page, only to threaten to cut out her tongue in the next chapter.

Edited July 21, 2023 by sifth

[Ran]

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

And yes, the fact that Jon was aware that Eddard didn't trust Roose but Eddard's wife and heir weren't is Martin just adding unnecessary elements that just make plot points harder to swallow

I think one can square the circle by just combining Catelyn's observation about lords like Bolton and Karstark being the sort of men who'll try to take advantage of weakness with Ned's lack of trust of Bolton, mainly that he understood that Bolton was an ambituous lord who'd try to win marginal advantages for himself. But that's not the same thing as supposing he'd be an outright traitor.

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

He should have kept him close, maybe set him out to plunder the people of the West, with only his own men under his command. He did nothing that proved he was trust worthy enough to control half of Robb’s army.

He did nothing to prove himself untrustworthy either... Unlike the Greatjon, who threatened to kill Robb and tried to attack him...

None of the Vassals have done anything noteworthy to 'prove' Robb can trust them at that point. Robb is going on what his father thought of them and Ned did not appear to say Roose was untrustworthy.

Claiming that Robb should default to not trusting Roose because of things his family did hundreds of years ago I think is a bit silly, and if nobles in Westeros thought this way it would severely hamper diplomacy. Should EU member states start not trusting each other again over the Seven Years War or something?

Edited July 21, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[sifth]

37 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He did nothing to prove himself untrustworthy either... Unlike the Greatjon, who threatened to kill Robb and tried to attack him...

None of the Vassals have done anything noteworthy to 'prove' Robb can trust them at that point. Robb is going on what his father thought of them and Ned did not appear to say Roose was untrustworthy.

Claiming that Robb should default to not trusting Roose because of things his family did hundreds of years ago I think is a bit silly, and if nobles in Westeros thought this way it would severely hamper diplomacy. Should EU member states start not trusting each other again over the Seven Years War or something?

He did nothing that made him trust worthy either. Also I'm sorry, but as I've said many times, the flayed man, is possibly the evilest banner in the history of the series. You'll never convince me it's anything less; maybe once George makes a banner of a puppy or baby getting violently murdered, I'll change my mind. So when the guy who uses it also scares the living crap out of you, it only raises more flags. Let alone the family history of what that banner means. Ohh, and the fact that the man in question happens to actually be doing such things, all be it quietly. Sorry, but if something looks like a duck and acts like a duck, it's probably not a horse, lol

Plus knowing Roose he probably advised Ned and Robb to fight the war is the scummiest way possible. Even a loyal Roose is still basically their own token evil teammate, as shown to us when he murders nearly all the civilians at Harrenhal, for the "crime" of helping the Lannisters.

Also if you want to bring the real world into this. I'm not trusting anyone who wears a swastika, which basically is what the flayed man banner is. I don't care if the person in question didn't do anything evil, the fact that he/she wants to wear such an evil sign, proves they can't be trusted.

Edited July 21, 2023 by sifth

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

He did nothing that made him trust worthy either.

Yeah, but neither did any other of Robb's vassals at that point. None of them had done anything to show they could be trusted. Greatjon showed he couldn't be trusted. Robb is going off what Ned thought of them and there is no indication at that point in the story that Ned found Roose untrustworthy .

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Ohh, and the fact that the man in question happens to actually be doing such things, all be it quietly.

Robb doesn't know this, especially at that point in time, because Roose is quiet about it.

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

Also I'm sorry, but as I've said many times, the flayed man, is possibly the evilest banner in the history of the series.

So I guess if you were a noble in the story you would refuse to trust House Trant as well? If you were a trader in the real world you would refuse to trade with Benin?

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

So I guess if you were a noble in the story you would refuse to trust House Trant as well? If you were a trader in the real world you would refuse to trade with Benin?

Meryn Trant is the only member of that House I recall and the guy basically beats Sansa and is an evil scumbag. So not exactly picking the best example.

If anything George should have had Roose win a battle for Robb, or shown us Rosse giving Robb a good peace of advice in a scene. To provide Robb a reason why he should trust him. All we get is "mom the guy scares the crap out of me, I hope he scares Tywin".

Edited July 21, 2023 by sifth

[Springwatch]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:25 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I don't remember, what happens to the smallfolk that Brynden threw out? The ones Edmure put in. When Frey and Lannister put RR to siege the smallfolk were harassed or BWB?

I don't think we hear. The enemy is focused on the castle, so nearby people are probably foraged into oblivion. The rest could be ok.

On 7/15/2023 at 3:34 AM, Arthur Peres said:

She was wrong when she pushed Ned to take the position of Hand.

She stopped pushing when she found out Ned's version of the plan was to leave her behind in Winterfell. And she begged him not to go after Bran fell.

On 7/15/2023 at 3:34 AM, Arthur Peres said:

She was petty to drive Jon out of Winterfell, even thought with the size of the castle she would barely see him, and if she is afraid of him becoming the next Daemon Blackfyre she should keep him close and watch him. Jon was also Robb's best friend and Arya favorite brother.

Jon wouldn't have been driven out into the snow. He's not a child any more; it's way past time he should be fostered out to prepare for adult life. Any lord or commander would be happy to oblige the Starks of Winterfell.

On 7/15/2023 at 1:43 PM, sifth said:

The whole direwolf's being able to sense traitors thing, was something GRRM didn't invent until the third book. You'll notice how lady isn't able to sense Joff's true nature or Cersei's. Same with Greywind and Theon. Yes, the wolves protected the kids and could sense when their lives were in danger, but the whole "the wolves don't like someone, so they're a traitor" thing, didn't start until book 3 onward.

Maybe it's not exactly traitors, but the mood of the moment. Joffrey and Cersei aimed to charm Sansa with their invitations. Theon was a friend to the Starks most of their time together, including saving Bran's life from the wildlings.

On 7/17/2023 at 3:33 PM, John Suburbs said:

It's an even easier thing for Littlefinger, the Master of Coin, to have his agents on the docks. Nine of every ten harbormasters and customs agents are his men. And he owns at least some of the brothels where dozens of common oarsmen with fresh silver in their hands are telling tales of the rich lady who just came into port. It was Petyr's men, after all, who first came to Cat at the inn that Moreo lined up for her.

Good points. But it's Varys' job to have a complete intelligence network; he's not going to retreat from the docks just because LF is there.

When talking to Cat, LF credits Varys with finding her, and Varys sort of accepts the credit (I suppose I am guilty). Maybe there's too much emphasis there? I can't think why Varys would cover for LF (which he does again, over the knife story), or why LF would want him to, or want him there at all. I guess Varys used his knowledge to barge in the meeting, and is storing up the information for later use.

On 7/20/2023 at 5:28 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is war, he isn't trying to find men that will go out & pick daisies, he wants seasoned men. I'd imagine the Greatjon gave him a bit of a fright also & probably still does. 

Look at Gregor Clegane for instance, a sadistic monster & well known yet it doesn't stop Tywin from trusting him to the tasks he sets forth for him. 

There were essentially no red flags. Should Robb had said; Listen, Roose, I know the Boltons have served the Starks faithfully for many moons but you have a flayed man on your banner, which upsets my delicate stomach & besides you scare me a little so I'll not be utilizing your loyalty or your army, thanks any how?

Exactly. Roose has a decent army, and skills as a commander that Robb needs. He's not a nice guy, but he is a major asset in warfare, and if Robb doesn't make full use of his assets but Tywin does, it's not likely Robb will win.

Roose was the right man for the specific operation when Robb chose him. He had no opening for rebellion, no motive. Robb should have been awake to the idea that things can change.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Springwatch
trimmed quote