The Acts of Caine by Matt Woodring Stover [Are these books rarer than gold?]

[Veltigar]

For years now, I have heard all sorts of positive things about Matt Stover's science fantasy series The Acts of Caine. I never got around to reading them, mainly because the first book had a long delivery time and there was always something more readily available to take Stover's slot in my reading budget/schedule. I thus forgot about the series, but recently I visited the literature subforum and was reminded again of the existence of this series.

I thus finally ordered Heroes Die (the first novel) and promptly forgot about it since it would take over 1 month to be delivered to my doorstep. I got it yesterday and am 160 pages in, and I find the novel exhilarating. If it keeps on going like this, I will happily join the chorus with all the other reviewers who rave about these books. Given how long it took to get the first book delivered to me, it seemed prudent to order the other novels as well.

That turned out to be difficult. The place I live has plenty of web shops (all the big ones, plus local equivalents). Normally that gives me an embarrassment of choices in editions, bindings and delivery times. For The Acts of Caine however, it appears almost as if I live on the surface of the moon. None of the local web shops, book stores or local affiliates of the big (American) web shop had anything on offer.

I ended up buying all three novels second-hand at quite a big expense. Had to check two different platforms to find all three of them. For my carbon footprint, acquiring this book series will also be a nightmare, since the four books are sourced from three different retailers, in three different countries on two continents. I know I could have easily avoided this with eBooks or Audiobooks, but my personal preference lies in owning an actual physical copy of books I really like.

Why I am sharing this however, is because the ordeal of finding these books seems very strange to me. Not only because that is something we are not used to anymore (everything nowadays is always available), but also because this book series seems so popular and Stover is quite a well-known author. So, I appeal to the collective memory of the board, to see whether anyone knows why there aren't dozens of reprints of this series? Or why there aren't film adaptations of the work. I'm curious to see whether there are like IP disputes or something that keep this series out of print and thus out of reach for new generations of readers?

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Of course, also feel free to say something about the content of the books themselves, but please keep it spoiler free since I'm still catching up  

 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Veltigar

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

They’re popular in the context of the SFF fandom and on this forum in particular. No one in the mainstream has even heard of Matt and their first association to the name will be of a certain American footballer.

Unfortunately, they are commercial failures which is why he hasn’t written any sequels beyond the four books you’ve bought. I love them to death myself, but yeah even I found it challenging to acquire them in india and had to settle for the kindle versions. 
 

You’re in for a ride though ! My favourite one is Blade of Tyshalle and this series just begs for a live action adaptation but that’s an even bigger dream than getting more sequels at this point. 
 

One of my favourite Caine quotes:

It’s one thing to be a good guy because that’s who you are. It’s something else to be a good guy because you’re too much of a fucking pussy to break the rules

Edited August 25, 2023 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[dog-days]

4 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

One of my favourite Caine quotes:

It’s one thing to be a good guy because that’s who you are. It’s something else to be a good guy because you’re too much of a fucking pussy to break the rules

Sounds like horrendous misogynist crap to me, but different strokes for different folks I guess. 

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

13 minutes ago, dog-days said:

Sounds like horrendous misogynist crap to me, but different strokes for different folks I guess. 

It works in the context in which he was saying it, for the particular individual against which it was directed (without giving away any spoilers) but Caine is definitely a flawed character. He’s not a misogynist though. You’ll know that if you’ve read the books, quite the opposite really.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[IlyaP]

2 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Why I am sharing this however, is because the ordeal of finding these books seems very strange to me. Not only because that is something we are not used to anymore (everything nowadays is always available), but also because this book series seems so popular and Stover is quite a well-known author. So, I appeal to the collective memory of the board, to see whether anyone knows why there aren't dozens of reprints of this series? Or why there aren't film adaptations of the work. I'm curious to see whether there are like IP disputes or something that keep this series out of print and thus out of reach for new generations of readers?

There were eBook editions of all four books released a few years ago, with very Brett Weeks style covers, that were...not the greatest. Authors like John Scalzi and Scott Lynch have both promoted the hell out of Matt's books, as have I (I hand out copies of Heroes Die to any friends who've not read him, and have at least several copies of the HD and BoT lying around the house in multiple formats). 

Blade of Tyshalle was meant to have a bigger marketing push, but just before it came out, from what I recall, the marketing budget for the book fell through at Del Rey, which led to the book arriving and being praised, but not having much in the way of any real, serious promotion. I remember seeing multiple copies of it at every Chapters I visited at the time of its release, and it's remained a critical darling despite that. 

[polishgenius]

Man, you're lucky you weren't looking for Blade of Tyshalle before the newer ebook editions came out when the last two books were published. It was going for like 400 dollars iirc. 

But yeah, the answer as people have said is it's one of those that's incredibly well-liked on a couple of very niche internet forums but didn't actually sell well at all. Most of his writing income came from (the best) Star Wars books and other tie-ins. Though he hasn't published a book of any sort since Caine's Law so I'm not sure if he's still writing at all tbh. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Caine is definitely a flawed character.

 

I don't want to get into any specifics to not spoil Veltigar at this point but let's not beat around any bushes: Caine is evil. Stover's pitch to himself when he came up with the book was basically 'how bad can I make a character and still have audiences root for him'. The series certainly evolved from there but Caine is still basically that guy. 

 

[Veltigar]

2 hours ago, IlyaP said:

There were eBook editions of all four books released a few years ago, with very Brett Weeks style covers, that were...not the greatest. Authors like John Scalzi and Scott Lynch have both promoted the hell out of Matt's books, as have I (I hand out copies of Heroes Die to any friends who've not read him, and have at least several copies of the HD and BoT lying around the house in multiple formats). 

Blade of Tyshalle was meant to have a bigger marketing push, but just before it came out, from what I recall, the marketing budget for the book fell through at Del Rey, which led to the book arriving and being praised, but not having much in the way of any real, serious promotion. I remember seeing multiple copies of it at every Chapters I visited at the time of its release, and it's remained a critical darling despite that. 

Yeah, the covers of book 2, 3 and 4 were awful. It's as if someone took a time machine and asked Dall-E to create as generic a fantasy cover as possible. A shame that Del Rey screwed him over.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

14 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

I don't want to get into any specifics to not spoil Veltigar at this point but let's not beat around any bushes: Caine is evil. Stover's pitch to himself when he came up with the book was basically 'how bad can I make a character and still have audiences root for him'. The series certainly evolved from there but Caine is still basically that guy. 

 

Yeah….he’s still not misogynistic though. I don’t how that poster got those vibes from my quote of Caine.He’s basically just saying that fear keeps most people in line and without those inhibitions they’d be let loose to run havoc.

Hes an asshole but I think it’s a bit of stretch to just call him pure evil. I don’t think he’s as evil and anti hero as say Walter White.Even if Caines killed more people directly. Canines really a result more of his upbringing than a statement on his nature which I do believe is fundamentally good.But yeah he can be a bloodthirsty,ruthless and a smart dick. Kinda like a combination of Shivers and Logan from Abercrombie.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[3CityApache]

@Veltigar I'll just say you're in for a treat. Heroes Die is very good, but it's still quite ordinary, if well written and thought of, fantasy novel. Blade of Tyshalle is better, one of the most satisfying pay offs in the finale I've ever read. Caine Black Knife shows completely different perspective you never even suspected existed, but it's Caine's Law that is something entirely different and brainfreezingly mind bending. Great stuff.

Edited August 25, 2023 by 3CityApache

[polishgenius]

44 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Hes an asshole but I think it’s a bit of stretch to just call him pure evil.

 

I didn't say he's pure evil. I'm not really sure what that means. But he's definitely evil.
 

Here's Stover talking about the character concept.

[A wilding]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I don't want to get into any specifics to not spoil Veltigar at this point but let's not beat around any bushes: Caine is evil. Stover's pitch to himself when he came up with the book was basically 'how bad can I make a character and still have audiences root for him'. The series certainly evolved from there but Caine is still basically that guy.

He failed with this audience. I started skimming about 1/3 of the way into Heroes Die because I found Caine such an unlikeable character. I have no desire to try the sequels.

[Wilbur]

I completely agree on the marketing failure to support the books.

The only reason I found them was that the Scottsdale library robot suggested it to me:  "You like SciFi, you enjoy Stefan Rudnicki as an audiobook narrator, and you have an opening in your Overdrive account - please enjoy Heroes Die."

Otherwise, I would never have heard of them, which is a shame.

[JGP]

Liked Heroes Die, was so-so on Blade, meh the third, didn't even read the last book. Found them increasingly predictable, iirc.

[Kalbear]

Stover is remarkably good at writing evil characters and making them incredibly compelling. Probably the main reason that his Revenge of the Sith novelization and his other Star Wars books (particularly Traitor) worked so incredibly well. My personal view is that he does an exemplary job of showing the person's motivations, having them do unspeakable things, and also having you understand it completely. It reminds me a lot of Nabokov and is compelling to me for similar reasons. Star Wars is awesome because you get to finally have Sith that aren't mwahahaha villains. 

He also writes shit-hot action sequences that are very cinematic and over the top. 

And yeah, I don't think Caine is particularly misogynistic; using 'pussy' in a negative context is misogynistic, but it isn't especially or deliberately so. 

[Zorral]

Casual, inattentive misogyny is just fine, doesn't count for anything, has no effect. Nothing to see here, comment on, or even consider.

[dog-days]

Don't want to derail the thread: for clarification, I was talking about the quotation, not about the character or books (which I haven't read, and probably won't unless I go on a trans-continental quest for all the volumes). 

It's not the kind of quotation I'd want pinned to my wall any more than I'd want it there if pussy were deleted and replaced with y** or n***** 

Anyway, I am actually looking forward to reading more about the books since I haven't heard of them before. 

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Casual, inattentive misogyny is just fine, doesn't count for anything, has no effect. Nothing to see here, comment on, or even consider.

It's entirely reasonable to call it out. Caine is absolutely a product of his environment, which means he's certainly casually misogynistic just like virtually every male in the 80s in the US was. 

If that's a dealbreaker for you by all means, let it be broken. That's fine. But it isn't a particularly good indicator that the rest of the book is going to be him being particularly misogynistic. 

Note if that is the sort of thing that bothers you the villains in the story are VERY bad in that way, and that is a very reasonable callout to make. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Kalnak the Magnificent

[IlyaP]

8 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Man, you're lucky you weren't looking for Blade of Tyshalle before the newer ebook editions came out when the last two books were published. It was going for like 400 dollars iirc. 

$400? Jeezus. I have multiple copies, and just got yet another copy the other day for about $40. 

[IlyaP]

6 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I completely agree on the marketing failure to support the books.

The cover for Heroes Die does him no favors. Del Rey had no idea how to market it when it came out, as it wasn't a Tolkien knock-off, and was more in the vein of Lord Foul's Bane, which even for 1998, had a cult following at best (the recent new editions are certainly helping it gain a new audience, thankfully), but because it wasn't like the BFF of the era, nor was it big concept SF either. Being a low fantasy/sf fusion, Del Rey just had...no idea what to do with it, as I understand. And had it come out a few years later, when G R IIIIII M DAAAAAAAARRRRRK emerged as sub-genre, it might have had a much better outcome. 

6 hours ago, Wilbur said:

The only reason I found them was that the Scottsdale library robot suggested it to me:  "You like SciFi, you enjoy Stefan Rudnicki as an audiobook narrator, and you have an opening in your Overdrive account - please enjoy Heroes Die."

Otherwise, I would never have heard of them, which is a shame.

Oh right, I forgot Rudnicki narrated the book. There was an interview with him online - The Tubes of You possibly? - where he talked about the book at length a few years ago.

[IlyaP]

4 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

It's entirely reasonable to call it out. Caine is absolutely a product of his environment, which means he's certainly casually misogynistic just like virtually every male in the 80s in the US was. 

If that's a dealbreaker for you by all means, let it be broken. That's fine. But it isn't a particularly good indicator that the rest of the book is going to be him being particularly misogynistic. 

Note if that is the sort of thing that bothers you the villains in the story are VERY bad in that way, and that is a very reasonable callout to make. 

The unlikeability of the character is also a window through which he also criticises the implicitly horrible system that raised him, which is sort of a later-stage nightmare capitalism with an openly acknowledge and depicted caste system. So there's real world commentary as well as secondary-world commentary and world-building of both, which can't be an easy feat.