The Acts of Caine by Matt Woodring Stover [Are these books rarer than gold?]

[JGP]

7 hours ago, Zorral said:

Casual, inattentive misogyny is just fine, doesn't count for anything, has no effect. Nothing to see here, comment on, or even consider.

This is fair comment, Z. 

[karaddin]

I think the way I'd phrase it is that quote is indicative of a model of masculinity which includes misogynistic components as one of multiple problems.

I don't know that I'd use a comparison to Logen Ninefingers to try and argue against the idea that a character is particularly evil though, that speaks to a very different interpretation of Logen than I came away with. Shivers on his own might strike a slightly more compelling argument I guess, but blending with Logen is not doing favours.

Its been quite a while since I read these books (also grabbed the ebooks) but the vague lasting impression given was I think I'd probably put Caine around Thomas Covenant levels with a different mix of evil to charisma. That still leaves Angus Thermopyle below him in the shitty stakes though! And wherever I'd wind up ranking Joe Abercrombie's various cast of entertaining assholes.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

Again , he’s holding that quote as a context for our current times, disregarding the context of the book, the scene, the characters it’s directed against and especially as another poster and I pointed out - the world and environment that Caine was nurtured in. Any comment by men a 100 years ago would most likely also be termed as causal misogyny, by the standards and judgment of 2023. Is that really a fair statement to make then, calling the quote ‘horrendous misogynistic crap ?’

Edited August 26, 2023 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[polishgenius]

The books were written in our current times though. And are clearly a commentary on them. Do I think Caine is a particularly misogynistic character? No*, not really, but 'judge him by the standards of the time' works as a defence for a character in books written back in the time. Less so for books set in a made-up time deliberately making a character that way. 

 

 

*not aggressively misogynistic anyway. He does have a paternalistic, somewhat possessive attitude to the women in his life- at least until one later character makes it clear she's not having that from him. Though ultimately he has that attitude to everything so it isn't necessarily singling the women out. 

 

 

 

[Zorral]

You guys who believe the natural and normal expressions of misogyny set in 'the past' aren't sexist and are innocuous and didn't matter then and don't matter matter now could find Jenni Nuttall’s Mother Tongue: The Surprising History of Women’s Words of great interest. 

[Kalbear]

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

You guys who believe the natural and normal expressions of misogyny set in 'the past' aren't sexist and are innocuous and didn't matter then and don't matter matter now could find Jenni Nuttall’s Mother Tongue: The Surprising History of Women’s Words of great interest. 

That isn't what anyone said. You guys who can't read forums should probably spend more time actually reading the words people say instead of what you think they said. 

[Veltigar]

So, I don't want to bust in on whatever sexism discussion is being had, but I did manage to finish the book the day before yesterday and thought it would be a good time to share my impression.

Let me begin by saying that I found the novel absolutely spectacular. It's one of the most exhilarating reads I have had in a long time and it's a good reminder of just how enjoyable speculative fiction can be when it's done right. 

If I have to give one point of criticism, than it's that I think the denouement of the novel is not on the same level as the set up. Stover's plotting is quite intricate, but he manages to inject so much speed into the narrative that you are swept away by the flow of the story, in the way that the best action films manage to do.

He's able to maintain that narrative flow almost to the end, but then it falters a bit. Specifically (so spoilers for the first novel),

Spoiler

The way everything came together for Caine/Hari in the arena was a bit too convenient. Even if we allow for the fact that Berne was supposed to have been eliminated before the final confrontation, I still think it was a bit too implausible, as if the author all of a sudden just wanted to jam everything in place.

Now, it might be that Stover's is going to come back to explain the almost unbelievable luck Caine had to make things go his way in the next novel. I see that the question of Caine's black shell drawing all sorts of flow to it has not been addressed, despite the fact that several characters (notably Kierendal) made repeated references to it. That might be some sort of effect of his stardom, where Stover takes the metaphor of the actor to the next level with a sort of self-sustaining magical representation of star power.

Anyways, just speculation from my end on this point, don't confirm or deny for those who have already read it :p 

For the rest, I feel like Stover has tried to address many of the criticisms I myself have with a lot of mainstream fantasy, in the sense that a lot of fantasy is inherently conservative (it's "always" a hidden prince returning to restore the mythical just version of feudalism/absolutism). Here, you can see a mature version with a rather realistic focus on the people who usually end up leading a rebellion, without shying away from just how terrible most fantasy contexts in reality would be to live in as a commoner. 

He's also a master at creating evil characters, as has been stated above. With the exception of Count Berne (and even he was more rounded and humanized than most antagonists elsewhere in mainstream fantasy), I felt some sympathy for each of them, despite the fact that I'd happily lock each and every character away in a cell after which I'd jettison the key if they were living in real life.

I have a busy week ahead, but I'm tempted to buy the audio or e-book to already get started on book 2 before the paper copy arrives.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

Glad you liked it ! Don’t you think this could have a perfect film adaptation if only someone in Hollywood would execute it ? 

1 hour ago, Veltigar said:

So, I don't want to bust in on whatever sexism discussion is being had, but I did manage to finish the book the day before yesterday and thought it would be a good time to share my impression.

Let me begin by saying that I found the novel absolutely spectacular. It's one of the most exhilarating reads I have had in a long time and it's a good reminder of just how enjoyable speculative fiction can be when it's done right. 

If I have to give one point of criticism, than it's that I think the denouement of the novel is not on the same level as the set up. Stover's plotting is quite intricate, but he manages to inject so much speed into the narrative that you are swept away by the flow of the story, in the way that the best action films manage to do.

He's able to maintain that narrative flow almost to the end, but then it falters a bit. Specifically (so spoilers for the first novel),

  Hide contents

The way everything came together for Caine/Hari in the arena was a bit too convenient. Even if we allow for the fact that Berne was supposed to have been eliminated before the final confrontation, I still think it was a bit too implausible, as if the author all of a sudden just wanted to jam everything in place.

Now, it might be that Stover's is going to come back to explain the almost unbelievable luck Caine had to make things go his way in the next novel. I see that the question of Caine's black shell drawing all sorts of flow to it has not been addressed, despite the fact that several characters (notably Kierendal) made repeated references to it. That might be some sort of effect of his stardom, where Stover takes the metaphor of the actor to the next level with a sort of self-sustaining magical representation of star power.

Anyways, just speculation from my end on this point, don't confirm or deny for those who have already read it :p 

For the rest, I feel like Stover has tried to address many of the criticisms I myself have with a lot of mainstream fantasy, in the sense that a lot of fantasy is inherently conservative (it's "always" a hidden prince returning to restore the mythical just version of feudalism/absolutism). Here, you can see a mature version with a rather realistic focus on the people who usually end up leading a rebellion, without shying away from just how terrible most fantasy contexts in reality would be to live in as a commoner. 

He's also a master at creating evil characters, as has been stated above. With the exception of Count Berne (and even he was more rounded and humanized than most antagonists elsewhere in mainstream fantasy), I felt some sympathy for each of them, despite the fact that I'd happily lock each and every character away in a cell after which I'd jettison the key if they were living in real life.

I have a busy week ahead, but I'm tempted to buy the audio or e-book to already get started on book 2 before the paper copy arrives.

 

[Rhom]

Great books all around, but not some that I'm ever comfortable recommending to other people in my day to day life sometimes due to their pre-grimdark grimdarkness!  

[Werthead]

Also, the four books are wildly different to one another in tone, structure, writing style and theme. I don't think I've read another four-book series which is so consistently great but also so inconsistently different in approach to each novel.

[Veltigar]

2 hours ago, Rhom said:

Great books all around, but not some that I'm ever comfortable recommending to other people in my day to day life sometimes due to their pre-grimdark grimdarkness!  

I'm more bothered by the difficulty of obtaining the books themselves. Unless you hoard copies like a dragon or @IlyaP, it's just too expensive/difficult to convince most people to give them a shot.

I am going to recommend it to a couple of friends of mine though. At least two of them are weirdos who usually read eBooks, so they wouldn't be bothered by the difficulties facing people who like to enjoy a book in the old-fashioned way. 

5 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Glad you liked it ! Don’t you think this could have a perfect film adaptation if only someone in Hollywood would execute it ? 

 

I don't know. It's very exciting certainly, but the concept would be hard to translate to the screen I think. Not impossible of course, but you'd need a lot of money and a lot of skill to do this right. While I'd root for an adaptation in this case to give the books more exposure and Stover a payday, I'd be pretty sure that some stupid Hollywood studio would turn this into a generic fantasy film along the lines of Jason Statham's D&D film from the early 2000S (for those who still remember that one, it's okay to go to therapy to repress that memory).

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Also, the four books are wildly different to one another in tone, structure, writing style and theme. I don't think I've read another four-book series which is so consistently great but also so inconsistently different in approach to each novel.

Interesting. Do you still feel that behind these four different books, there is one overarching vision (which would be good) or do they feel like four different books because Stover emulated other writer's each time? (which would be less appealing)

[Veltigar]

On the subject of Stover, I read his Wikipedia page and I'm stunned that he hasn't published anything since 2012. For a man with such a gift, who devoted so many years of his life to writing, you wonder what he's doing today. Does anyone know whether he's active on social media or still visits cons and the like?

[polishgenius]

He has an active twitter I haven't really seen him talking about what he does nowadays or if he's got any writing in the works, but he's about and happy to talk about Caine (warning, I wouldn't follow him before you finish the series for that reason).

 

 

 

I think it'd be next to impossible to adapt it and still keep it what it is, because so much of what's importance comes from Caine's soliloquy. That becomes even more true in books two and four in particular, and honestly I don't see how you could possibly adapt 4 in a satisfying way.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

I think the first 2 can be made into movies relatively smoothly. The others just get… way to psychedelic for it to work I agree. Kinda like what Denis has in mind for adapting Dune and Dune Messiah and ignoring the other, weirder books in the series. Same can be done for Caine.

[3CityApache]

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 I don't see how you could possibly adapt 4 in a satisfying way.

Just no fucking way whatsoever. 
 

But I agree first two should be doable. And it just happens that the second book ends extremely satisfyingly and could perfectly work as an ending to the whole thing on screen. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by 3CityApache

[IlyaP]

3 hours ago, 3CityApache said:

But I agree first two should be doable. And it just happens that the second book ends extremely satisfyingly and could perfectly work as an ending to the whole thing on screen. 

Book 3 is totally adaptable, being an almost....quasi-western, of a sort. It's just one that would require some flashbacking, a la Lost or something. 

[IlyaP]

7 hours ago, Veltigar said:

I'm more bothered by the difficulty of obtaining the books themselves. Unless you hoard copies like a dragon or @IlyaP, it's just too expensive/difficult to convince most people to give them a shot.

HEY HEY HEY

I'm just makin' sure the guy gets some royalties from the land down under! 

[unJon]

I read these books so long ago but remember loving the series. BoT was my fav. Third book was jarring but worked in hindsight after reading book 4 (and I agree with whoever said book 4 was a mindf@ck). 

[IlyaP]

33 minutes ago, unJon said:

I read these books so long ago but remember loving the series. BoT was my fav. Third book was jarring but worked in hindsight after reading book 4 (and I agree with whoever said book 4 was a mindf@ck). 

It's a terrific action-philosophy novel, in which Caine learns in the most unusual manner (and through the mediations of the horse witch) to reflect on his past and temper his anger and rage. It's just so wonderfully different from the previous three books. It's just such a wonderfully unique and beautiful quartet. 

[3CityApache]

8 hours ago, IlyaP said:

Book 3 is totally adaptable, being an almost....quasi-western, of a sort. It's just one that would require some flashbacking, a la Lost or something. 

I meant first two books work well as a coherent story with a satisfying closure. Adapting 3 without adapting 4 makes little sense for me and adapting 4 is impossible. Plus book three just wouldn’t work as an ending to the whole series.