Pat Rothfuss XVIII: Whereof one cannot speak...

[Zorral]

How often do you think publishers issue contracts to new writers for more than one book at a time?  How often do authors plan and expect to have their projected series to be published in full, yet, due to sales, change of editors, whatever, the publisher doesn't pick up the next one?

39 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

I do think publishing an incomplete work is an implied social contact to finish it which means there is an obligation (social) for the author to fulfill the promise of a complete story.

This is the publishing business you are talking about, not a religious order. Or the cops, or politicians, or, or, or -- none of whom fulfil all the time their social and spiritual expectations either.

[Derfel Cadarn]

42 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

I'm sure I've stated it before but I do think publishing an incomplete work is an implied social contact to finish it which means there is an obligation (social) for the author to fulfill the promise of a complete story. To that extent, I understand much of fan frustration and feel it myself, even. And, as it is a social frustration, it can and should be expressed socially.

That doesn't excuse all behavior but explains it well (there's inevitably a spectrum of frustrations and severe distress or belligerence is part of that) and makes it rather understandable even if I don't endorse all ranges of complaint and manifestations of disappointment.

I cringe at the most extreme temper tantrums thrown by fans but I commiserate with the underlying frustration a bit too much to ever enjoy an author snapping back.

... and then I also think I can appreciate a good bit of the performance and expectations stress authors endure and how seeking perfection can lead to delays. Butt it's a lot like real work. Every individual delay is potentially understandable but somewhere along the line you reach a point beyond which you've gone too long and anything more is simply an excuse not to fulfill that social contract.

I, personally, feel Pat and GRRM have reached that point and I'm fundamentally disappointed.

It's tough but life goes on and there's always hope.

The acute issue with Rothfuss is that he clained the last two books were written, just needed an edit, and would be out a year apart., taking aim at series’ with big gaps between books like GRRM.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

56 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

I'm sure I've stated it before but I do think publishing an incomplete work is an implied social contact to finish it which means there is an obligation (social) for the author to fulfill the promise of a complete story. To that extent, I understand much of fan frustration and feel it myself, even. And, as it is a social frustration, it can and should be expressed socially.

Nope.  

But that doesn’t excuss Rothfuss’ repeated lies.  It is the lying Rothfuss engages in that I object to.  

That doesn’t mean he has any obligation, moral or legal, to ever write another word.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Ninefingers]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 

That doesn’t mean he has any obligation, moral or legal, to ever write another word.

Certainly no legal obligation. 

But we'll have to agree to disagree on moral obligation. When you tell someone you'll provide something to them (be that item or opportunity), I think you've created an expectation. It comes down to considerations of right and wrong, and I don't believe it's right to go back on your word, especially when you're the one who created and volunteered the expectation. 

 

[Ninefingers]

30 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The acute issue with Rothfuss is that he clained the last two books were written, just needed an edit, and would be out a year apart., taking aim at series’ with big gaps between books like GRRM.

Not even needed an edit, "good to go".

[Ser Not Appearing]

57 minutes ago, Zorral said:

How often do you think publishers issue contracts to new writers for more than one book at a time?  How often do authors plan and expect to have their projected series to be published in full, yet, due to sales, change of editors, whatever, the publisher doesn't pick up the next one?

 

Whether or not a publisher is willing to put out a product seems rather distinct from the author-driven delay / non-performance being discussed.

If I said I'd pick you up at 8 to go do XYZ and I decided to screw off, get drunk, play video games or otherwise not come over ... and your reply to my complaint about the missed commitment is that other people may have not come over in the past because their car broke down, I'd be even more frustrated at your lack of accepting responsibility and wonder if you were even mentally stable. It's a weird redirect, imo.

Internal and external conflicts / barriers are differing levels of controllable and spark differing degrees of blame.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Ser Not Appearing

[Ser Not Appearing]

https://reddit.com/r/KingkillerChronicle/s/rE8LcjFySd

This just popped up for me on Reddit. I'm sure my phone is spying on me but at least it generated a timely connection.

Rothfuss' past comments on writer's block haven't aged well.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Ninefingers said:

Certainly no legal obligation. 

But we'll have to agree to disagree on moral obligation. When you tell someone you'll provide something to them (be that item or opportunity), I think you've created an expectation. It comes down to considerations of right and wrong, and I don't believe it's right to go back on your word, especially when you're the one who created and volunteered the expectation. 

 

Nope.  

There is no obligation to finish a series.  You run the risk of the author getting hit by a stray meteor the moment you buy a book that is a segment of a series.  The author owes you only the book you purchased… no more… no less.

Let me put this differently.  Did Tad Williams owe his readers a sequel series to Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn because he included the prophecy about Josua’s children at the end of To Green Angel Tower?  The inclusion certianly implies the story continues.  Does ending a series in an open ended fashion morally obligate the author to keep writing in this world in your view?

If not… why not… given your views about moral obligations above.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Ser Not Appearing]

If someone invites you over for dinner then you can reasonably expect more than appetizers but, no, eating the full dinner with them does not imply that they owe you breakfast or dinner tomorrow as well.

And if they get struck by a meteor while preparing dinner, you can reasonably give them a pass.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Ser Not Appearing

[Ninefingers]

12 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Nope.  

There is no obligation to finish a series.  You run the risk of the author getting hit by a stray meteor the moment you buy a book that is a segment of a series.  The author owes you only the book you purchased… no more… no less.

Let me put this differently.  Did Tad Williams owe his readers a sequel series to Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn because he included the prophecy about Josua’s children at the end of To Green Angel Tower?  The inclusion certianly implies the story continues.  Does ending a series in an open ended fashion morally obligate the author to keep writing in this world in your view?

If not… why not… given your views about moral obligations above.

Meteors?

This is a poor argument, which can be applied to absolutely anything, leading to the conclusion that moral obligations simply do not exist because someone could always be hit by a meteor. 

I can't speak to the end of Williams' book, but I think (hope?) you'd agree that there's a different level of expectation created between an open ended series and a declarative statement of: "I have already created thing and I will deliver thing at this time"

As for the statement of "The author owes you only the book you purchased… no more… no less.", it uses language (purchase, owe) that suggests legal obligation. I completely agree with you here! There is no legal obligation.

 

[Ninefingers]

25 minutes ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

If someone invites you over for dinner then you can reasonably expect more than appetizers but, no, eating the full dinner with them does not imply that they owe you breakfast or dinner tomorrow as well.

And if they get struck by a meteor while preparing dinner, you can reasonably give them a pass.

I've always really liked the dinner analogy. If you'll permit me to flesh it out:

I prepare and serve my children dinner, then tell them to go outside and play for a bit, but that dessert has been prepared and will be served at 7. 

7 comes and goes with some questions, then 8 rolls around and they start to misbehave. Around 9 they start throwing tantrums and using bad language when they realize I was lying about it having been prepared. I yell at them for their misbehavior and remind them that I signed no contract to provide dessert, and I'm the sole arbiter of whether it gets served.

Now, are my children owed dessert? No.

Is their behavior acceptable? No.

Did I behave morally with regards to the expectation I created? I sure don't think so. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Ninefingers

[Tears of Lys]

If any of these authors DO manage to release another book, I will slavishly purchase it and devour it immediately.

Sad, but true.

[Myrddin]

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, you should always finish what you start.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Myrddin

[Ser Not Appearing]

9 minutes ago, Tears of Lys said:

If any of these authors DO manage to release another book, I will slavishly purchase it and devour it immediately.

Sad, but true.

Not sad at all.

The sadness is in the waiting, like being trapped in a cave and watching time pass as your last candle slowly burns down and you never know if a rescue will come before the flame sputters out.

The joy in actually being rescued is all the more palpable.

[Lord Patrek]

One thing that you guys must understand, and that is seldom mentioned by angry fans, is that book 3 as it existed in that interview way back when (with Yours Truly, by the way) is no longer relevant.

Far be it from me to play devil's advocate where Rothfuss is concerned (he deserves most of the scorn he's been receiving for reasons that have been explained here ad nauseam), but a great chunk of the trilogy's plot went down the crapper when his editor took TWMF off the production line when she realized that he wouldn't be able to deliver the manuscript as planned.

Based on interviews and posts that date back from that period, it's evident that Rothfuss changed a lot of things about the series during that process and that TWMF was quite different than what it was meant to be originally.

As a result, TDoS as it existed when TWMF hit number 1 on the NYT list was likely no longer a viable final installment in the series. Whatever he could salvage probably couldn't work on its own and trying to make things work since then have not been up to par. 

So he didn't lie in 2007 when he told me that the entire trilogy was written. But those drafts, though they existed at the time, hadn't gone through the editing process and pretty much lost most of their relevance by the time book two was sent to the printer. Yes, there are rumors that beta readers found whatever they saw of book 3 to be weak, but those are only rumors.

We'll never know the full story about the years between TWMF and TDoS. His editor created a bit of a storm when she mentioned that she had yet to see a single word from book 3 a while back. Now it looks that Rothfuss is in a better place mentally and writing again. Which is great.

It doesn't excuse the lies and the empty promises and the way he's dealt with his own fans. It never will. But I wish the most rabid fans would stop believing that he's sitting on a finished manuscript just to piss them off. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Most don’t think he’s hiding a finished book to piss them off, they think he either lied (or was grossly optimistic) in claiming the series was finished and woukd be released quickly. A major selling point was that there woukd be no huge delays like other series’. People fed up waiting for the latter installments of AsoI&F were happy to start the series thinking it done.

Curious what book 2’s changes were that so fucked up book 3

[Ninefingers]

32 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

 

Curious what book 2’s changes were that so fucked up book 3

He talks in this blog about the changes:

https://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2012/07/why-i-love-my-editor/

[Gaston de Foix]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That doesn’t mean he has any obligation, moral or legal, to ever write another word.

He has a legal obligation to his publishers, surely.  They signed a contract for a three-book trilogy not two books.  They marketed it on the basis it would be a three-book trilogy.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Gaston de Foix said:

He has a legal obligation to his publishers, surely.  They signed a contract for a three-book trilogy not two books.  They marketed it on the basis it would be a three-book trilogy.  

He might have an obligation to repay an advance on the third book if never delivered but… no… he has no absolute legal obligation to ever write another word.

[Zorral]

Patrick Rothfuss Is Hosting a Twitch Series (With Guest Authors!) to Promote Latest Publication

https://www.tor.com/2023/09/06/patrick-rothfuss-twitch-series-narrow-road/