Pat Rothfuss XVIII: Whereof one cannot speak...

[Rhom]

14 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The first two books have outsold all of DAW's best-case, most optimistic sales projections probably a thousand times over. DAW have made absurd money from Rothfuss, and the books continue to sell very well on backlist (even if I'm sure diminishing returns are kicking in). I would not be surprised at all if the books continued to outsell most new books quite handsomely.

Rothfuss is a cash cow, so whilst DAW might be annoyed at his schedule and lack of communication (which seeped out with Betsy's angry Facebook post a few years ago), the idea they might sue him or drop him is pretty implausible. The same with Martin and Lynch's publishers.

But man oh man... wouldn't they love to have a new book to kickstart the sales figures of the first two all over again???

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

sue him or drop him is pretty implausible.

If only because he/they then can turn around and sell it to somebody else, and somebody else will buy them for sure.  Though . . . there are fewer and fewer somebody elses in publishing all the time.

[IlyaP]

13 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

@IlyaP, is that how publishing contracts are drafted? I would have assumed that the contract provided for the delivery of three books with separate advances for each.  I would also have assumed that it contained a termination or cancellation or non-delivery provision that directed for the repayment of the advance upon non-delivery upon a specified date. 

To have a provision for unwinding a contractual obligation is different from not having it in the first place.  

As far as I know, Rothfuss was paid an advance on the whole trilogy by Daw back in 2006/2007. Given that he's sold over ten million copies alone as of 2015, I am certain Daw have recouped the costs on the advance they paid him. (Traditionally, advances are quite small - the number of people who receive big, press release-worthy advances is statistically extremely small.) 

Now, I have never heard of an author repaying advances on a book. If there are instances of that happening somewhere out there in the publishing world, I would treat that as an insane exception to the rule. Traditionally, the way it works is a publishing house acquires a manuscript with the intention of publishing it. The contract lays out what the advance will be on the book, which then provides the managing editor, marketing staff, the finance department, etc., with an idea of how many copies need to be sold across different whatever formats they're publishing in to recoup the advance paid to the author.

If a book doesn't do crazy well in relation to what was expected - but does continue selling nonetheless - but at less than expected rates where the advance has not yet been recouped, what normally happens is the author's royalties are lowered until the cost of the advance has been paid off. 

So at this point, Daw have had their return on investment and then some, so the ball's exclusively in Rothfuss' camp. There's nothing for him to repay. As to non-delivery, that's entirely dependent on whether or not his contract had a delivery clause. And without having that in front of us, we can only speculate, which I encourage everyone to avoid. 

 

[Gaston de Foix]

9 hours ago, IlyaP said:

As to non-delivery, that's entirely dependent on whether or not his contract had a delivery clause. And without having that in front of us, we can only speculate, which I encourage everyone to avoid. 

Thank you.  Would you mind elaborating on what a delivery clause in a publishing contract typically states?

If it's a contract for an entire trilogy why wouldn't it have one?

[IlyaP]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Thank you.  Would you mind elaborating on what a delivery clause in a publishing contract typically states?

About to head to bed, so I'm going to have to be brief here. There's no "typical" here. Contracts vary per industry. Legal publishing is not the same as non-fiction publishing is not the same as theatrical publishing is not the same as, well, you get my point. 

There's no typical. 

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

If it's a contract for an entire trilogy why wouldn't it have one?

It's worth noting that deadlines and dates can be moved, extended, and changed, and that publishers have individual notions of what they consider acceptable material for publishing, and if a manuscript isn't in the best shape, they'll work on it until it is and adjust the publishing date accordingly. 

This can be more or less true and have different repercussions and consequences depending on the subfield, as alluded to in the paragraph above in this post. 

And bear in mind also, that editors are extremely understanding people, who want to help their authors produce the best versions of their work, and will work as closely with them as they can to help them get there. And in the end, that's what's most important - helping their authors produce the most amazing, magnificent art possible. And if it means things get delayed - they get delayed. 

For a bit of context -John Updike had a 24 year gap between books in his Eastwick books, and JV Jones has had (thus far) a 13 year gap between books in the Sword of Shadows series. This stuff happens. Publishers can't make authors submit books, and if they know a book will turn a profit, they'll wait and keep waiting until the book is done. But again - the rules are different for fiction versus legal publishing versus academic publishing versus science publishing and so on. 

[Zorral]

16 hours ago, IlyaP said:

I have never heard of an author repaying advances on a book.

I myself repaid an advance because the editor turned out not to have understood anything about the book in the first place.  Got a different publisher.

Others have pulled their books, and repaid the advance, particularly more latterly in YA fiction particularly, because of accusation about cultural appropriation and cultural deafness and so on and so forth.  They were abused throughout media -- so easy to do in the daze of the twitmonster -- and wanted to rethink. The Guardian in particular seems to keep track of this.

Also most publishing contracts have clauses now in which the advance must be repaid in the case of conditions of moral turpitude or, you know, whatever.  These clauses also include that in the case of lawsuits the author is responsible for the legal costs.

Of course there are always the Judith Regans who want books by those who have committed and / or believe horrors.

Moreover, for a new author it is seldom that a contract will be for an entire trilogy from the gitgo. That Rothfuss got as much as he did for a first novel, from someone with no track record whatsoever.  But I can personally vouch that Betsy and the entire DAW team were in awe and had their sox knocked off, and fell madly for the partial and outline.  They were so knocked out they did what they don't do -- they sent it to friends to read, because they knew their friends would love it -- which I did.  To see Betsy and Sheila behaving this way was amazing. Usually, even when editors do like something, particularly when it is a first time writer -- they are canny and low key.  "Did you like it?  Tell me," cries insecure author, "did you like it?  Why did you like it?'  And editor says, "Of course I liked it.  I bought it, didn't I?"

Beyond that, no agent worth her cut would allow three books to be locked into a single contract that treats three books the same, because, if, for instance, as Rothfuss's first novel did -- sold like hotcakes, got endless glowing reviews from pros and fans alike, won and got nominated for numerous awards, the author would be locked into contracts with advances -- and royalties rates -- far lower than what the work was worth.  And who knows how other rights and license fees would be scaled?

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Zorral

[IlyaP]

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

I myself repaid an advance because the editor turned out not to have understood anything about the book in the first place.  Got a different publisher.

Others have pulled their books, and repaid the advance, particularly more latterly in YA fiction particularly, because of accusation about cultural appropriation and cultural deafness and so on and so forth.  They were abused throughout media -- so easy to do in the daze of the twitmonster -- and wanted to rethink. The Guardian in particular seems to keep track of this.

Well there you go - something that's different to my lived experience. Curious: around what years were this? I left the publishing industry in 2013 (industry wages were and still are terrible). 

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

Also most publishing contracts have clauses now in which the advance must be repaid in the case of conditions of moral turpitude or, you know, whatever.  These clauses also include that in the case of lawsuits the author is responsible for the legal costs.

Am fairly certain we had a few instances of authors being responsible for legal costs, but I don't think we ever had to action that, as most of our authors would eventually get their manuscripts to us once we chased them enough times. Which is why I caveated that each sub-field was different - I was working in legal publishing, which from everything I've seen, operates very differently from the profitable, and more attention-rich mainline fiction section of the industry. 

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

Moreover, for a new author it is seldom that a contract will be for an entire trilogy from the gitgo.

Whereas with established authors, I think it's fair to say that the circumstances can be different - thinking here of the kinds of deals that James S.A. Corey had once Leviathan Wakes proved to be a success.

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

Beyond that, no agent worth her cut would allow three books to be locked into a single contract that treats three books the same, because, if, for instance, as Rothfuss's first novel did -- sold like hotcakes, got endless glowing reviews from pros and fans alike, won and got nominated for numerous awards, the author would be locked into contracts with advances -- and royalties rates -- far lower than what the work was worth.  And who knows how other rights and license fees would be scaled?

I've been trying to figure out what sort of contract she had. What little I've been able to learn suggests he gave her a mountain of a manuscript that was to be the original expected trilogy? There's a bit of text about this on the King Killer Chronicles Fandom wiki, but how much of it is even remotely accurate I can't say. Articles I've found online suggest he gave Betsy a mountain of text that suggested to her that she'd have a publishable trilogy on her hands, but even that is me inferring based on reading between the lines. Am curious if there's more light you can shed here on this to satiate my curiosity on the matter? 

[Derfel Cadarn]

On checking the list of US publishers my agent sent The Blood Hour to, I was surprised to see DAW wasn’t on the list. Not sure if he’s trying the Big 5 first or was waiting to see how the Astra acquisition of DAW plays out.

Might email him about it next week, I think it’s the kind of fantasy book they might like. And I’ve written six novels in 13 years, so writer’s block not a problem.

I’ve given up on seeing Doors of Stone. Even if wver finished , I suspext  the quality will be poor. If he’s writing because he has to rather than wants to, the quality of TNotW won’t be there

Edited September 9, 2023 by Derfel Cadarn

[Zorral]

15 hours ago, IlyaP said:

I was working in legal publishing, which from everything I've seen, operates very differently from the profitable, and more attention-rich mainline fiction section of the industry. 

The way specialty publishing such as medical, legal, academic, etc. operate don't share much if anything with trade publishing, beyond paying as little as they can -- which is why academic presses at this point are a disaster, after more than a century of this -- and taking all the rights they can, which usually is literally All the Rights, i.e. owning the copyright.

I have been working publishing, one way and another, including newstand serials, i.e. the magazine industry, research and libraries all my life, including a law library, with periods of teaching, and a detour right out of first grad school graduation, the legal industry, as well as professional writing of my own.  Not to mention what Partner has been doing all his life with writing, publishing, music, production, television and films.  

Edited September 9, 2023 by Zorral

[IlyaP]

7 hours ago, Zorral said:

The way specialty publishing such as medical, legal, academic, etc. operate don't share much if anything with trade publishing, beyond paying as little as they can -- which is why academic presses at this point are a disaster, after more than a century of this -- and taking all the rights they can, which usually is literally All the Rights, i.e. owning the copyright.

I've done a bit of work in academic publishing as well, and oh boy, I am not impressed. If anything, it pays worse than legal publishing. In fact, one of my cohorts from my masters program in publishing left her job in trade publishing at a major publishing house to come work in legal publishing (where several of us ended up after graduating), because it paid better. 

A friend who works in retail book sales and I were recently bemoaning how low retails wages are here, and I told her about how much legal publishing pays at present - and it's even less than retail book sales. 

7 hours ago, Zorral said:

I have been working publishing, one way and another, including newstand serials, i.e. the magazine industry, research and libraries all my life, including a law library, with periods of teaching, and a detour right out of first grad school graduation, the legal industry, as well as professional writing of my own.  Not to mention what Partner has been doing all his life with writing, publishing, music, production, television and films.  

So a bit similar to me - you've stayed in what I call "publishing adjacent roles". (Have worked in book stores, journalism, legal publishing, web and content writing for financial services and real estate, and came very close to working in theater publishing even, here in Australia, which, quelle surprise, would have paid, uh, not well.) 

I love books and publishing. It's the only thing teenage Ilya ever wanted to do, and it's the only thing adult Ilya ever wants to do. If only it wasn't such a mess of an industry.

[Ninefingers]

Update on the sample chapter:

TL;DR

I tried to make it cool, it got complicated. I feel bad. I still want to do it. It's half edited and don't know whether to keep editing or give you the old version.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

Update on the sample chapter:

TL;DR

I tried to make it cool, it got complicated. I feel bad. I still want to do it. It's half edited and don't know whether to keep editing or give you the old version.

 

Sounds like someone who wants to do big stuff and gets distracted in the middle of planning with other stuff… then the original planned thing never happens.

[Lord Patrek]

And if you donate enough money this year, maybe you'll get it. 

[Ser Not Appearing]

17 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

Update on the sample chapter:

TL;DR

I tried to make it cool, it got complicated. I feel bad. I still want to do it. It's half edited and don't know whether to keep editing or give you the old version.

 

 

Better to be honest than keeping hiding over it.

[Ninefingers]

It really, REALLY feels like the best path forward is just to release it in whatever state it’s in and move on. 
 

He can keep working on it if he likes, and once book three comes out [waits for laughter to die down] literally zero people will care if this chapter released for charity changed, or stunk, or whatever. 

[Myrddin]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:21 PM, Lord Patrek said:

And if you donate enough money this year, maybe you'll get it. 

So you're saying there's a chance!?!

 

/s

[Lord Patrek]

I said maybe. 

[Kyll.Ing.]

On 10/13/2023 at 6:01 AM, Ninefingers said:

It really, REALLY feels like the best path forward is just to release it in whatever state it’s in and move on. 
 

He can keep working on it if he likes, and once book three comes out [waits for laughter to die down] literally zero people will care if this chapter released for charity changed, or stunk, or whatever. 

Conversely, promising it and then not delivering it was pretty much the worst thing he could have done.

I mean, when a rather substantial part of the follower base had doubts that even an outline of the third book ever existed, it seems like a monumentally bad idea to seemingly substantiate their claims by failing to deliver even one chapter after promising it. At the very least, it gave the naysayers a whole lot of traction. He should not have made that promise without having a sample chapter ready, or at the very least he should have cobbled together something and written disclaimers all over it.

[Ser Not Appearing]

58 minutes ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

Conversely, promising it and then not delivering it was pretty much the worst thing he could have done.

I mean, when a rather substantial part of the follower base had doubts that even an outline of the third book ever existed, it seems like a monumentally bad idea to seemingly substantiate their claims by failing to deliver even one chapter after promising it. At the very least, it gave the naysayers a whole lot of traction. He should not have made that promise without having a sample chapter ready, or at the very least he should have cobbled together something and written disclaimers all over it.

Frankly, some of the WoW chapters that GRRM has released read very poorly to me. And yet I was still happy to read them. It doesn't have to be perfect.

[Kyll.Ing.]

21 hours ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

Frankly, some of the WoW chapters that GRRM has released read very poorly to me. And yet I was still happy to read them. It doesn't have to be perfect.

It just has to exist, really. Just something to show that 1) at least snippets of the book have been drafted, and 2) that Rothfuss can keep to his word. Failure to deliver would instantly make a lot of people suspect that neither were true, so it should have been a top priority to sort it out very quickly once it had been promised.

I mean, nobody obliged Rothfuss to publish a chapter before he told us he would. He could have said nothing, then done nothing, and status quo would have been comfortably maintained (some would have continued to low-key curse the prolonged silence, but at least it would only be because of the prolonged silence). But as soon as that promise was made, expectations were raised, and the failure to deliver became vastly more prominent.

And the baffling thing is, there's no way he didn't see it coming. Promising a chapter was a power move. It raised the stakes. Created expectations. He must have known that he needed to follow it up, or there'd be a great backlash. And there was. Backlash that previously had no reason to exist. There's a very straightforward cause-and-effect thing going on, and it seems to have been set up on Rothfuss' own initiative. So now we've got the worst outcome for the worst reason, as it were.