Ser Raynard Westerling

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

This will be a short one, but Sybelle Spicer always planned to betray Robb to Tywin right? And Raynard is probably dead (although it’s not confirmed). So…she got her son killed. Jesus. 

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

This will be a short one, but Sybelle Spicer always planned to betray Robb to Tywin right? And Raynard is probably dead (although it’s not confirmed). So…she got her son killed. Jesus. 

I'm sure she isn't the first power-hungry mother who gets her son killed in the quest for more power.

[James Steller]

She didn’t plan on Raynald dying. She didn’t think the Freys would kill him. And they probably wouldn’t have if he hadn’t gone the extra mile for Robb and Grey Wind.

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah, Sybelle is another contender for the “mother of the year award”. I don’t think she knew everything that was going to happen. But she certainly was all in on the betrayal of Robb w/o caring how that would impact her own children. She’s a horrible person, just read her exchange w/ Jaime in Feast. 

[Aebram]

13 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I'm sure she isn't the first power-hungry mother who gets her son killed in the quest for more power.

Clearly not ... Cersei.

[Nevets]

I don't think Sybell Spicer had any plan other than for Jeyne to marry Robb and break up his alliance with the Freys, and ensuring he had no children to carry on his legacy.  I doubt she expected it to put her son in any danger, outside of the usual risk of being Robb's close companion.  And I'm pretty sure the Red Wedding was as much a surprise to her as it was to almost everyone else.  She may be the mother from Hell, but that's due to her treatment of Jeyne, not Raynald.

[astarkchoice]

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

I don't think Sybell Spicer had any plan other than for Jeyne to marry Robb and break up his alliance with the Freys, and ensuring he had no children to carry on his legacy.  I doubt she expected it to put her son in any danger, outside of the usual risk of being Robb's close companion.  And I'm pretty sure the Red Wedding was as much a surprise to her as it was to almost everyone else.  She may be the mother from Hell, but that's due to her treatment of Jeyne, not Raynald.

Could also be she knew of the wedding and had intructed her son be saved but being loyal to robb the kid got in the way. Unintended Collateral damage wed call it todsy

[John Suburbs]

On 9/20/2023 at 12:29 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

This will be a short one, but Sybelle Spicer always planned to betray Robb to Tywin right? And Raynard is probably dead (although it’s not confirmed). So…she got her son killed. Jesus. 

Her involvement in the plan, starting with Robb's marriage to Jeyne, had to have been worked out before the Crag fell. Once Sybell lost her ravens, there was no effective way for her and Tywin to negotiate this deal.

But that doesn't mean Sybell knew exactly what was going to happen at the Twins, other than that Robb was going to die. Only those who needed to know were in on the plot, and even then, only to the extent needed to play their parts. So she would have every reason to believe Raynard would be spared.

The real question in all of this is how could Sybell guarantee that Robb would fall for Jeyne. You can find the answer by looking into the history of House Spicer.

[Nevets]

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Her involvement in the plan, starting with Robb's marriage to Jeyne, had to have been worked out before the Crag fell. Once Sybell lost her ravens, there was no effective way for her and Tywin to negotiate this deal.

But that doesn't mean Sybell knew exactly what was going to happen at the Twins, other than that Robb was going to die. Only those who needed to know were in on the plot, and even then, only to the extent needed to play their parts. So she would have every reason to believe Raynard would be spared.

The real question in all of this is how could Sybell guarantee that Robb would fall for Jeyne. You can find the answer by looking into the history of House Spicer.

There is no reason for the Crag to be conspiring with Tywin before the Crag fell.  They had no reason to think Robb was going to stay there - his injury and decision to recuperate there were hardly foreseeable events - so there is nothing to communicate about.  How they managed it after his arrival I don't know.  Possibly the maester secretly sent ravens or they did some kind of workaround, maybe using a go-between.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

First, I agree with what everyone said. Second, you are missing my point though. I know she didn’t plan her son’s death. She still was a part of what ended up killing him. That’s kind of my point. Being power hungry …is just often evil. It leads to unintended consequences that SHOULD make you reconsider, instead of making excuses for, why your son died. She indirectly, but still, did, help bring about her son’s death. Unintended consequences are one thing if you are trying to do the right thing (say Eddard telling Cersei is plan or Catelyn trying to trade Jaime for Arya and Sansa) but quite another when you are purposely betraying for personal gain. Yes, Catelyn and Eddard were foolish, but they were foolish for good reasons, their ploys just didn’t pan out (I wonder how people would view Jon Snow if he’d been murdered for refusing to kill the old man or Davis is Melisandre had executed him for protecting Edric Storm), but Sybelle made her decision for personal gain and didn’t even tell her children what she was doing (based on their charscters, they probably would have refused her. Weirdly she raised good children, perhaps she is a gray character, sometmes a good mom and sometimes terrible). 

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

There is no reason for the Crag to be conspiring with Tywin before the Crag fell.  They had no reason to think Robb was going to stay there - his injury and decision to recuperate there were hardly foreseeable events - so there is nothing to communicate about.  How they managed it after his arrival I don't know.  Possibly the maester secretly sent ravens or they did some kind of workaround, maybe using a go-between.

The Westerlings are Tywin's vassals so they would presumably have sought advice/assistance when they realised they were under threat. 

But it's hard to imagine the whole thing was planned out at that stage. Apart from anything else, at that stage the Frey alliance was still holding firm.

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

There is no reason for the Crag to be conspiring with Tywin before the Crag fell.  They had no reason to think Robb was going to stay there - his injury and decision to recuperate there were hardly foreseeable events - so there is nothing to communicate about.  How they managed it after his arrival I don't know.  Possibly the maester secretly sent ravens or they did some kind of workaround, maybe using a go-between.

They had no way to conspire after the Crag fell. What kind of workaround? Robb has taken control of the castle, including the ravens, and it is surrounded by 4,000 men or more. Plus, Tywin is on the march through the riverlands at this time, so any kind of overland approach would take months. It had to have been worked out before that.

Robb's injury is not necessary. All they need is to get him to drink the potion. And if he doesn't, then there is no marriage, no fake alliance, no harm, no foul. Tywin needs to come up with some other plan. 

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

They had no way to conspire after the Crag fell. What kind of workaround? Robb has taken control of the castle, including the ravens, and it is surrounded by 4,000 men or more. Plus, Tywin is on the march through the riverlands at this time, so any kind of overland approach would take months. It had to have been worked out before that.

Robb's injury is not necessary. All they need is to get him to drink the potion. And if he doesn't, then there is no marriage, no fake alliance, no harm, no foul. Tywin needs to come up with some other plan. 

Well then they must be psychic to know Robb is going to hang around at their castle.  And there was no love potion.  Every action Robb takes is perfectly explainable by his being 16 and Ned stark's son.

[Otatop1000]

I think it wasn’t a case of let’s entrap Robb.  More “oh snap, our daughter just married a rebel lord calling himself king, if we don’t conspire, Lord Tywin will end us.”  No power motive other than to not have her house extinguished.  It’s like Tywin says the house that puts the needs of their children before the family is doomed to fail.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 9/23/2023 at 3:41 AM, Otatop1000 said:

I think it wasn’t a case of let’s entrap Robb.  More “oh snap, our daughter just married a rebel lord calling himself king, if we don’t conspire, Lord Tywin will end us.”  No power motive other than to not have her house extinguished.  It’s like Tywin says the house that puts the needs of their children before the family is doomed to fail.

Tywin’s house is crumbling down because nothing he said was of any value. He is an evil evil man who treated his children like garbage/tools. At this point in the book…he is dead, as a direct consequence of that. His daughter has destroyed the house through a combination her own lust for power, thinking she is better than literally eberyone else, treating others as pawns, and ..delusions of grandier? Again, that is a direct result of his parenting. His other son is directly planning to join his family’s enemies to utterly destroy his ENTIRE HOMELAND, agaimnbasically because how salty he is about Tywin’s parenting. His other other son is trying to turn his life around, essentially to IGNORE what Tywin taught him and be a better person, making his own path rather than the one his father wanted for him. 

It is quite possible that House Lannister either entirely collapses by the end if these books DIRECTLY BECAUSE of Tywin’s words. Putting the needs of thenhouse before the children IS LITERALLY THE DEATH SENTENCE OF HIS HOUSE. I’m done. 

 

PS. I am not actually angry at you, or eben angry at all. I just added the all caps for emphasis. Perhaps I could bold them, but that is tiring. 

[John Suburbs]

On 9/22/2023 at 2:41 PM, Nevets said:

Well then they must be psychic to know Robb is going to hang around at their castle.  And there was no love potion.  Every action Robb takes is perfectly explainable by his being 16 and Ned stark's son.

Robb was heading right for the Crag. He went from Oxcross to Ashemark to Castemere. Look at the map to see what's next.

The love potion is evident in the plot itself, as well as the history of the Spicer women and Robb's actions toward Jeyne by the time they reach Riverrun. It's as evident as RLJ and who really killed Jon Arryn.

[Curled Finger]

Our first good look at Sybell comes through Jamie Lannister's eyes.  He is not impressed.  Her actions are hard as are her words to her daughter we are already predisposed to think kindly of.  There is some masterful writing where Jeyne Westerling is concerned here.  Sybell's behavior dictates our reactions, not necessarily Jamie's reactions to her.  Jamie tends to be more polarizing than sympathetic.  During Jamie's negotiations with Sybell we learn of her agreement with Tywin to secure marriages and upgrades for all her children as well as Castamere for their family seat.   There was no design or intent to harm any of her children.  Sybell's anger toward Jeyne is Jeyne's reluctance to give up on Robb and his rebellion and go along quietly.   Sybell is a nasty piece of work, but Jeyne is not helping herself even a little bit in the Westerlands community is she? 

The Knight of Seashells is only missing.  No body has turned up.  Granted, he could be dead.  Just as Ashara Dayne, The Knight of Skulls and Kisses and Brandon Stark could be dead.  Alas, there is no proof of death.  Funny how even witnesses to a person's death can get a story wrong in ASOIAF.    Jeyne was at Riverrun and her brother was at the Twins when the Red Wedding occurred.  Jeyne, as far away, protected and safe as she was, ended up in custody while her brother has yet to be found.  Perhaps he is dead and perhaps he has gone to ground, taken in by any number of Stark or Tully supporters in the Riverlands.  

[Castellan]

When I first read about him I did very much hope he'd survive but I'm really not counting on it. His parents should have made some excuse to leave him behind instead of taking him to the wedding.

[Nevets]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:49 AM, Curled Finger said:

Our first good look at Sybell comes through Jamie Lannister's eyes.  He is not impressed.  Her actions are hard as are her words to her daughter we are already predisposed to think kindly of.  There is some masterful writing where Jeyne Westerling is concerned here.  Sybell's behavior dictates our reactions, not necessarily Jamie's reactions to her.  Jamie tends to be more polarizing than sympathetic.  During Jamie's negotiations with Sybell we learn of her agreement with Tywin to secure marriages and upgrades for all her children as well as Castamere for their family seat.   There was no design or intent to harm any of her children.  Sybell's anger toward Jeyne is Jeyne's reluctance to give up on Robb and his rebellion and go along quietly.   Sybell is a nasty piece of work, but Jeyne is not helping herself even a little bit in the Westerlands community is she? 

The Knight of Seashells is only missing.  No body has turned up.  Granted, he could be dead.  Just as Ashara Dayne, The Knight of Skulls and Kisses and Brandon Stark could be dead.  Alas, there is no proof of death.  Funny how even witnesses to a person's death can get a story wrong in ASOIAF.    Jeyne was at Riverrun and her brother was at the Twins when the Red Wedding occurred.  Jeyne, as far away, protected and safe as she was, ended up in custody while her brother has yet to be found.  Perhaps he is dead and perhaps he has gone to ground, taken in by any number of Stark or Tully supporters in the Riverlands.  

While I'm quite sure Raynald Westerling is dead, he's the only one I believe to be dead that I can imagine still being alive.  Brandon Stark is safely dead; I assume you meant Benjen.  I think he's still alive, along with Ashara Dayne and Tyrek Lannister.  On the other hand Syrio Forel, Stonesnake, and Quentyn Martell are quite dead, wild speculation to the contrary.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

While I'm quite sure Raynald Westerling is dead, he's the only one I believe to be dead that I can imagine still being alive.  Brandon Stark is safely dead; I assume you meant Benjen.  I think he's still alive, along with Ashara Dayne and Tyrek Lannister.  On the other hand Syrio Forel, Stonesnake, and Quentyn Martell are quite dead, wild speculation to the contrary.

It's fun to imagine a whole bunch of them alive when they are so obviously dead.  I meant Bran, not Brandon.  Afterall, a whole bunch of folk saw him die with his brother, right?