Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[IFR]

2 hours ago, Mladen said:

I need to ask about this - what are the chances of condensing Rand's harem from the books into one woman - most likely, Elayne? The inclusion of Elayne at the tower, prominence of actress during press tour, makes me believe that it is more likely to keep just Elayne as romantic interest, especially due to the popularity of Lanfear and the fact Rand and Egwene are still semi-connected? I honestly have no idea what they'll do with Min, as her story completely failed IMO, and as for Aviendha she could be the window to Aiel world and culture.

Just a thought. Wanted to know if anyone had given it any thought.

It's hard to say how they'll approach it in the show. I doubt they'll go for the poly relationship as it is in the books. It has been foreshadowed by Min that Rand is with three beautiful women, but that could mean anything. Lanfear is a beautiful woman. It could be someone else, too.

Or it could be the same women as in the book, but a different dynamic. Maybe Elayne and Rand are together, but Elayne is also with Aviendha. Maybe Aviendha and Rand is a thing, but she is also interested in Elayne and Perrin. Etc.

Even though Alanna is in what is portrayed as a positive dynamic with two men, I think it's likely the show will make an effort to depict Rand as being kind of a selfish pig for going outside of monogamy, if I have any proper sense of the showrunner's approach to things so far. Unless Rand becomes bisexual and makes advances to Mat or some other male, in which case it probably will take a more positive spin.

[Mladen]

 

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

Iirc in season one when he met Min I think they hinted at the 3 women thing. So I don’t think they’re changing that.

Yes, but those three women don't necessarily have to be Elayne, Min and Aviendha. TV Rand is much more connected to both Lanfear and Egwene than book version. And Min's vision could easily be transformed into something else. 

49 minutes ago, Poobah said:

I also don't think they'd have spent so much time foregrounding Alanna's poly group if it wasn't going to be used.

This will be sensitive issue, as the Aes Sedai-Warder bond is so beautifully depicted with Moiraine and Lan, and Alanna's bonding with Rand was... well, in lack of better words, r**e (I may be wrong with analogy, it's been 10 years since I read the books, but I do distinctly remember how uncomfortable that was).

I am not sure they will do polyamorous relationship centered around the heterosexual male. I understand we have double standards, but between two already connected women to Rand - Egwene and Lanfear, we are adding three more... A bit too much.

16 minutes ago, IFR said:

It's hard to say how they'll approach it in the show. I doubt they'll go for the poly relationship as it is in the books. It has been foreshadowed by Min that Rand is with three beautiful women, but that could mean anything. Lanfear is a beautiful woman. It could be someone else, too.

Or it could be the same women as in the book, but a different dynamic. Maybe Elayne and Rand are together, but Elayne is also with Aviendha. Maybe Aviendha and Rand is a thing, but she is also interested in Elayne and Perrin. Etc.

Even though Alanna is in what is portrayed as a positive dynamic with two men, I think it's likely the show will make an effort to depict Rand as being kind of a selfish pig for going outside of monogamy, if I have any proper sense of the showrunner's approach to things so far. Unless Rand becomes bisexual and makes advances to Mat or some other male, in which case it probably will take a more positive spin.

 

I agree with this. 

I thought that perhaps the inclusion of Elayne on Tower may be indicative of them going different route. I sincerely doubt Lanfear will go any time soon (Natasha O'Keeffe was one of the best parts of the second season). It would make even more sense for her to direct her jealousy toward a female character that is in love with Rand, and not Moiraine. Plus, Natasha and Ceara (Elayne) are aesthetically very different women, with different energies, so it could nicely work...

Yeah, Alanna's dynamic is positive, so they may play on it with different participants or different dynaics. I never liked it in the books, even though I somewhat understood what Jordan was doing. The bigger issue I have is that of three actresses, only Ceara leaves stronger impact that could warrant her appearance in seasons to come. Honestly, if MIn wouldn't appear anymore, I wouldn't mind. Aviendha is also someone I could live without. Interestingly, all three book characters are high on my favorites list, but on TV, neither Min nor Aviendha did anything for me. 

[David Selig]

7 hours ago, Mladen said:

I need to ask about this - what are the chances of condensing Rand's harem from the books into one woman - most likely, Elayne? The inclusion of Elayne at the tower, prominence of actress during press tour, makes me believe that it is more likely to keep just Elayne as romantic interest, especially due to the popularity of Lanfear and the fact Rand and Egwene are still semi-connected? I honestly have no idea what they'll do with Min, as her story completely failed IMO, and as for Aviendha she could be the window to Aiel world and culture.

Just a thought. Wanted to know if anyone had given it any thought.

Pretty low, the showrunner stated when asked about this that he's "more interested in polyamory than polygamy". Though this was a long time ago, when season 1 was still in the planning stage, so maybe the plans have changed.

Anyway, after rewatching the Avenger Assemble portion of the last episode where the EF5+Elayne gathered together, I realized there is not a single time in the books where this happen - the 6 of them being together "onscreen". Perrin and Elayne don't appear in a scene together until Book 13. Hopefully things will be different in the show and we'll see all of them together more often.

Edited October 15, 2023 by David Selig

[Arakasi]

Egwene and Rand are not romantically connected anymore. Lanfear I agree might take a bigger role but Egwene won’t. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard there still is Gawyn.

[IlyaP]

For those itching for some season 3 info, a few new articles have shed some info on the next season: 

https://www.wotseries.com/2023/10/15/the-wheel-of-time-season-3-filming-south-africa-new-york-comic-con-news/

https://www.aol.com/wheel-time-season-3-everything-170000359.html

[SpaceChampion]

 

[IlyaP]

So does this mean we're basically skipping the Stone of Tear sequence and callandor altogether?

[SpaceChampion]

11 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

So does this mean we're basically skipping the Stone of Tear sequence and callandor altogether?

Certainly that's just being delayed to a later season, not skipped.

Season 3 locations:  Tanchico, Caemlyn, Rhuidean, Two Rivers.   Cultures:  Tarabon, Sea Folk, Aiel, Andor.

Seems pretty stuffed to me.

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Gertrude]

On 10/14/2023 at 1:45 PM, IFR said:

Yes, I do. I suppose the dissonace is that you cannot see the changes thus far being so divorced from the original material that it seems like a completely different story, and this speculation I'm making does, and therefore you do not view the speculation as reasonable.

I can understand that people seeing the changes made would think even bigger changes could be made, but to speculate that Rand turns Dark and Egwene is the replacement Dragon - well, that does not seem as reasonable to me as it does to you. At that point, the story is not just taking a different path, but fundamentally changed. 

Then I saw this reply:

Quote

Even though Alanna is in what is portrayed as a positive dynamic with two men, I think it's likely the show will make an effort to depict Rand as being kind of a selfish pig for going outside of monogamy, if I have any proper sense of the showrunner's approach to things so far.

And that just seems like a petty comment because you're mad. I don't even know how to respond to something like this, and it's not fun, so I won't.

[karaddin]

7 hours ago, Poobah said:

I also don't think they'd have spent so much time foregrounding Alanna's poly group if it wasn't going to be used.

Yeah I'm pretty confident they're doing the work to set it up, and it feels even more likely than it did before s1 even started that they'll do exactly what we speculated back then - Rand with all 3 of them and Elayne+Avi also involved.

The main risk of that approach is that it feels like it's just catering to male fantasy, but 1) that argument against it always felt.... Very questionable to this queer woman, like our very existence is judged by whether men like it when I really don't give a fuck and 2) given a lot of men's reactions to the series so far it doesn't feel like there's much risk of the show doing it in a way that feeds into that lol

On the "avengers assemble" tower thing - there was a comment I just saw on Reddit by the book expert consultant it gives the strong impression it's going to be a very long time before we see them all together again, and that was part of why they really wanted to emphasize the importance of them all working together in a matter that's obvious in the visuals.

[fionwe1987]

4 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I can understand that people seeing the changes made would think even bigger changes could be made, but to speculate that Rand turns Dark and Egwene is the replacement Dragon - well, that does not seem as reasonable to me as it does to you. At that point, the story is not just taking a different path, but fundamentally changed. 

Then I saw this reply:

And that just seems like a petty comment because you're mad. I don't even know how to respond to something like this, and it's not fun, so I won't.

If I remember right, this was a tactic in the r/Whitecloak sinkpit, too. Extreme predictions that were laughable, that would be defended as totally rational and obvious if only you had to sense to see how truly awful the writers were, and were always destined to be, because they clearly want to destroy RJ's vision, and want to spit on his grave... You get the picture. 

1 minute ago, karaddin said:

The main risk of that approach is that it feels like it's just catering to male fantasy, but 1) that argument against it always felt.... Very questionable to this queer woman, like our very existence is judged by whether men like it when I really don't give a fuck

Yeah I never felt brave enough to say this in any discussion, but at least the way the books handle it, it's really hard to see anything harem like in their relationship. Elayne is very clearly the person making it happen. Despite having had the vision herself, even Min doesn't see it as practical in any way. Aviendha has no issues with other women being involved, but also doesn't push for it. 

Elayne is the first to make peace with it, then starts making an effort to make it real. Rand takes no part in any of this, literally. He's a continent away for most of it, and the bonding itself is something Elayne invents and performs with Aviendha. 

Now, you can see this as a ploy to make a harem palatable. Or you can see this as women having agency and using it, yes, in ways that seem strange, but only because society has pushed any such ideas to the edges. 

1 minute ago, karaddin said:

On the "avengers assemble" tower thing - there was a comment I just saw on Reddit by the book expert consultant it gives the strong impression it's going to be a very long time before we see them all together again, and that was part of why they really wanted to emphasize the importance of them all working together in a matter that's obvious in the visuals.

So basically Min's viewing in action? Interesting. 

In a way, that would even make sense of some of the nonsense with the battle. The three ta'veren together manipulating chance, so even Egwene's puny shield somehow holds, and Ishamael maybe didn't have his tea that morning so he was working at less than 100% of his channeling skills, and conveniently forgot all the dangerous ways he could have destroyed the entire city of Falme in less than a few seconds. 

It might even be what happened with Moiraine's weaves. 

I wonder if all the show haters will accept ta'veren as an explanation. 

[karaddin]

I just never had an issue with the shield holding because

1) it felt like a very short time to me, I'm not sure what's making it feel long to others (Daniel Greene interpreted it as 5-10 minutes) but either I'm missing something that says it was longer or they are missing something that says it's short, much more importantly

2) Ishy isn't actually trying to break it. He's trying to scare Egwene into abandoning Rand, not destroy the shield and kill them. He's already accepted that Lanfear completely fucked him, is making a half hearted play to still make it work but has resigned himself to waiting for the next life - his own, not Rand's. The other 5 arriving on the roof top isn't an overwhelming force he can't beat, but it's what rallies Rand to say that he has never and will never turn. 

Ta'veren interactions are a nice way to make the power of friendship a literal power though

I get the impression I see some of the book details quite different to some, so a question to you all that may help illuminate where we diverge:

What do you interpret as the decisive moment that wins the last battle in the books? Which is not to say the other moments don't matter, they're all important, but if you have to point to 1 specific tipping point what is it?

[fionwe1987]

13 minutes ago, karaddin said:

What do you interpret as the decisive moment that wins the last battle in the books? Which is not to say the other moments don't matter, they're all important, but if you have to point to 1 specific tipping point what is it?

This isn't controversial to me. Rand is almost done, and ready to give in to the Dark One.

Egwene speaks to him, and he finally gives up feeling responsible for the death of all the women around him. He accepts that people will die for this cause, and that will include women, and he has no business feeling responsible for all their deaths. 

It's something that Jordan spent books building up, and I'm reasonably confident the authors of the book did intend this to be the turning point of the battle. Helpfully, soon after, Rand takes actions that turn the mundane battle too. But the real battle was always over Rand's mind. 

[karaddin]

I didn't want to answer first and bias the responses but I guess once someone has answered that goes out the window anyway, so for me...

Very similar for essentially the same reason (which doesn't surprise me, I think we're pretty close on our interpretations of the books) but not the same one. It's Rand on the mountain at the end of the TGS for me, it's game over at that moment if he doesn't turn back to being human and feeling love. It's the climax of all the internal mistakes Rand had been making about how he needed to be to win, all the well meaning bad advice that almost cost the world, but not all the mistakes he's making like the list as you point out. 

It's also another of the parts that were written by Jordan right?

[SpaceChampion]

Ingtar's reveal as a darkfriend was shot, and deleted.  Will probably be released at some point.

Edited October 16, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[IFR]

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

And that just seems like a petty comment because you're mad. I don't even know how to respond to something like this, and it's not fun, so I won't.

You don't have to. But you are mischaracterizing my actions. I make these comments because these are my views of the show from how I've experienced the show.

You have a fundamentally different experience of the show, so you think I'm just being petty.

No, our experiences and views of the show really are that different.

And I would like to remind everyone that when I made fun of the evil dagger of Shadar Logoth being part of Mat's ashandarei, I was accused of making petty predictions since I am mad at the show or whatever, but it seems like that legimately may be an accurate prediction (which some are already trying to now normalize as a perfectly acceptable change). Among other discussions that people viewed as petty or nitpicking.

I think it may be worth reassessing your own perception of the show if that which you view as a ridiculous criticism turns out to be validated.

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

If I remember right, this was a tactic in the r/Whitecloak sinkpit, too. Extreme predictions that were laughable, that would be defended as totally rational and obvious if only you had to sense to see how truly awful the writers were, and were always destined to be, because they clearly want to destroy RJ's vision, and want to spit on his grave... You get the picture. 

I see we're leaping right to the notion that if an opinion is disagreeable it must be trolling.

Didn't we have a protracted discussion of the logic of Egwene using the a'dam on Renna, where several people were declaring that it was clearly out of line to point out that this violated the show's own rules? I mean, it makes so much sense, right? It obviously wasn't used as a weapon, there's no possible way a person can in good faith argue otherwise. You would have to be completely obtuse not to see it.

Then one of the co-authors of the series expresses puzzlement over the same a'dam issue. Someone who was a fan of the series, spent years consulting with Jordan's widow and reading his notes and writing the final books, had the same issue. You may not think Sanderson is the final word on it, but he has some credibility by virtue of his credentials and it's hard to rationally say that his criticisms are just bashing the show senselessly.

If your immediate approach to an opinion you dislike is to resort to ad hominem attacks, perhaps your own position is weaker than you believe.

[IFR]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

But the real battle was always over Rand's mind. 

This I agree with. The land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I didn't want to answer first and bias the responses but I guess once someone has answered that goes out the window anyway, so for me...

Very similar for essentially the same reason (which doesn't surprise me, I think we're pretty close on our interpretations of the books) but not the same one. It's Rand on the mountain at the end of the TGS for me, it's game over at that moment if he doesn't turn back to being human and feeling love. It's the climax of all the internal mistakes Rand had been making about how he needed to be to win, all the well meaning bad advice that almost cost the world, but not all the mistakes he's making like the list as you point out. 

It's also another of the parts that were written by Jordan right?

Oh I thought you specifically meant the Last Battle in aMoL. Otherwise, yes, that was the other major close call where it was game over, and honestly, one that was going to be way darker. The Dragon tries and loses because he's a messed up imperfect human is one thing. The Dragon went dark and broke the Wheel is something else entirely. 

2 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Ingtar's reveal as a darkfriend was shot, and deleted.  Will probably be released at some point.

Who cares. It's Ingtar's interactions with Rand and Perrin that make the reveal that he's a Darkfriend something that matters. He barely speaks two words to either of them here. Yes, a bit to Perrin, but he wasn't given much.

Unless they shot a backstory for him that integrates into the show as well as they did it for Liandrin, say, they couldn't replace that interaction with Rand and Perrin to make the audience care. 

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, IFR said:

And I would like to remind everyone that when I made fun of the evil dagger of Shadar Logoth being part of Mat's ashandarei, I was accused of making petty predictions since I am mad at the show or whatever, but it seems like that legimately may be an accurate prediction (which some are already trying to now normalize as a perfectly acceptable change). Among other discussions that people viewed as petty or nitpicking.

If you're talking about Sanderson's comment, he clarified that he hadn't yet read the S3 scripts and doesn't actually know. If that actually does become a thing, I will join you in mocking it.

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

Unless they shot a backstory for him that integrates into the show as well as they did it for Liandrin, say, they couldn't replace that interaction with Rand and Perrin to make the audience care. 

Rafe said the reason they cut it was because they hadn't built up enough of a relationship and it didn't have the emotional impact it should. So yeah, that's about right.