Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[karaddin]

40 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

If you're talking about Sanderson's comment, he clarified that he hadn't yet read the S3 scripts and doesn't actually know. If that actually does become a thing, I will join you in mocking it.

Same. As a make shift weapon in the season finale its fine, but his weapon for the rest of the series? I'll mock that as well.

[IFR]

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

If you're talking about Sanderson's comment, he clarified that he hadn't yet read the S3 scripts and doesn't actually know. If that actually does become a thing, I will join you in mocking it.

Yes, I know. The point being he believed that this is what the showrunners were doing. He wasn't trolling and making some bad faith criticism of the show. His experience with the show up to that point brought him to believe that something that asinine was occurring.

People were trying to suggest that I was making unreasonable and bad faith criticisms (as they are suggesting, yet again).

I'm saying that one can watch the show and reasonably come to the conclusion that the showrunners would do something like make the dagger part of the ashandarei, as stupid as that is, since this is what one of the co-authors themselves believed. Sanderson wasn't being a troll. He simply expressed his criticisms based on how he was experiencing the show, as divorced as that may be from your own experience.

9 hours ago, karaddin said:

Same. As a make shift weapon in the season finale its fine, but his weapon for the rest of the series? I'll mock that as well.

I look forward to joining forces in a couple of years.

Edit: I corrected the quote I was addressing. That must have been a very confusing response.

Edited October 16, 2023 by IFR

[Arakasi]

Well it depends on what happens with the dagger. Let’s be honest in the series they didn’t know what to do with Padan Fain. Sanderson has come out and said he had no idea there and Jordan didn’t either. They could easily have it cleansed by Mat killing Fain with it. And the getting it the normal way depends on keeping the Eelfinn around. If those are being cut for whatever reason then it makes sense to get Mat his weapon somehow. If they are still here though I agree that’s odd.

[Derfel Cadarn]

2 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

Well it depends on what happens with the dagger. Let’s be honest in the series they didn’t know what to do with Padan Fain. Sanderson has come out and said he had no idea there and Jordan didn’t either. They could easily have it cleansed by Mat killing Fain with it. And the getting it the normal way depends on keeping the Eelfinn around. If those are being cut for whatever reason then it makes sense to get Mat his weapon somehow. If they are still here though I agree that’s odd.

Fain should have died with Shadar Logoth.

To be fair, he could have died just after slashing Rand to no detriment to the plot

Edited October 16, 2023 by Derfel Cadarn

[Arakasi]

Just now, Derfel Cadarn said:

Fain should have died with Shadar Logoth.

Yeah that is my thinking. The dagger gets cleansed when Shadar Logoth gets defeated.

[SpaceChampion]

9 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Who cares. It's Ingtar's interactions with Rand and Perrin that make the reveal that he's a Darkfriend something that matters. He barely speaks two words to either of them here. Yes, a bit to Perrin, but he wasn't given much.

Unless they shot a backstory for him that integrates into the show as well as they did it for Liandrin, say, they couldn't replace that interaction with Rand and Perrin to make the audience care. 

Which is why they cut it.  Duh?  The original plan for season 2 was all of them travelling with the Ingtar.

[Gertrude]

3 hours ago, IFR said:

I'm saying that one can watch the show and reasonably come to the conclusion that the showrunners would do something like make the dagger part of the ashandarei, as stupid as that is, since this is what one of the co-authors themselves believed.

Sanderson also seemed convinced that Moiraine was stilled at the end of S1 too. That is something I never considered because it would be too much of a deviation IMO.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Gertrude

[Arakasi]

He’s also very certain Ishamael isn’t coming back which seems an odd thing to think.

[fionwe1987]

Sanderson is as much an adapter of WoT as Rafe is. I don't see him as an authority on what will happen in the show, or how what has happened should be interpreted. He's welcome to his opinion, but having found his WoT work less than exemplary, I'm not particularly concerned what he thinks of the show.

 

[IFR]

25 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Sanderson also seemed convinced that Moiraine was stilled at the end of S1 too. That is something I never considered because it would be too much of a deviation IMO.

It's hard to say what happened to Moiraine. She was blocked, but apparently that severed her bond with Lan, which she renewed. But even though the bond was severed, Lan was pretty much fine?

The mechanics of the show are pretty different from the books and don't make a terrible amount of sense. It was reasonable to guess that the show was going a different direction, and that's why Sanderson would have predicted this is what happened. And who knows what was changed in the re-writes of season 2?

You say that it is too much of a deviation (a subjective assessment) so you didn't believe the writers would take that approach. But this is a subjective assessment. You do not have a dowsing rod to the truth of the writers' motivations. It is reasonable to disagree with you. Those who disagree with you do not need to be infallibly correct to be reasonable.

11 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Sanderson is as much an adapter of WoT as Rafe is. I don't see him as an authority on what will happen in the show, or how what has happened should be interpreted. He's welcome to his opinion, but having found his WoT work less than exemplary, I'm not particularly concerned what he thinks of the show.

 

I mean, you are free to think you are the authority of how to interpret the text. And that's fine. But there's a large difference between saying you disagree with someone and then saying that their stance is completely ungrounded from any rationality based on the show and they're merely trolling. A lot of my objections are Sanderson's objections, and the objections of many others. I may go further than Sanderson, but casually attempting to dismiss opinions the hivemind here doesn't agree with is borderline cultish behavior.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, IFR said:

I mean, you are free to think you are the authority of how to interpret the text.

Yes, I am the best authority on how I interpret the text. Is this even a thing we're discussing?

1 hour ago, IFR said:

And that's fine. But there's a large difference between saying you disagree with someone and then saying that their stance is completely ungrounded from any rationality based on the show and they're merely trolling. A lot of my objections are Sanderson's objections, and the objections of many others. I may go further than Sanderson, but casually attempting to dismiss opinions the hivemind here doesn't agree with is borderline cultish behavior.

You know, you are the only one here concerned with how many people agree or disagree with you, and deriving any kind of legitimacy from that. 

Let me make it clear: if literally every single human being alive were to somehow manage to tell me they disagree with my reading of the books, or the show, my opinions on either will not change. 

I didn't say Sanderson's critique is ungrounded from rationality. You continue to invent positions that no one holds, to oh so cleverly retort against them. If you continue to do so, I guess I'll just have to learn how to use the ignore function. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by fionwe1987

[IFR]

26 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes, I am the best authority on how I interpret the text. Is this even a thing we're discussing?

We disagree on various elements of the show. Our interpretations differ. Generally in a disagreement, to substantiate one's position outside sources are cited.

You feel free to insinuate that I was trolling, and repudiate someone who is in fact a co-author of the series as a worthy source.

And you're welcome to do that. And I'm going to say that you are being unreasonable here.

31 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

You know, you are the only one here concerned with how many people agree or disagree with you, and deriving any kind of legitimacy from that.

Well, yeah. I'm one of the few here who hasn't been insulting people, or at minimum suggesting that people are making bad faith arguments. The farthest I've come to that point is the text above, where I suggested you are being unreasonable.

You, and others, have repeatedly insinuated that I am making bad faith arguments. I think that is rude. You may not care if you're rude, but all the same, I feel justified defending myself.

[fionwe1987]

I disagree with your views, and think they're no longer worth replying to.

Separately, I think Sanderson's opinions are not determinative to how I view the show.

Even more separately, others have their own perspectives on your views and Sanderson's.

You have somehow stitched all this together into a narrative, one which says your opinion is correct and everyone disagreeing with you is wrong, because you seem to care about the number of people disagreeing with you.

Have you considered the alternative that you have repeatedly stated your views, and we are all familiar with the contours of them, and some of us just happen to disagree with and dislike those views, to varying degrees, and are saying so?

I can assure you, there is nothing resembling a united opposition scheming to negate your views. 

You seem to want not just the right to air your views, but agreement. Or assurance that it is logical. Or, at least, no one questioning your logic, no matter what you say.

I'm pretty clear that I don't enjoy participating in a discussion within that kind of straightjacket. Is it possible for you to conceive that you cannot argue me out of this?

[IFR]

32 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

You have somehow stitched all this together into a narrative, one which says your opinion is correct and everyone disagreeing with you is wrong, because you seem to care about the number of people disagreeing with you.

etc.

Have you missed the part where I have repeatedly said that it is fine to agree to disagree, or that I've said I'm glad people enjoy the show, or that this entire debate is subjective? I don't recall you extending the same courtesy - quite the opposite, you repeatedly have stated how little you care for my perspective of the show,  and you've straight up insinuated that my disagreement is trolling.

Your beliefs of this show have exhaustively been expressed, too. I don't dismiss your views and say, we get it, can you quiet down so that I can discuss my more interesting views on the show in this thread that is a discussion on the show? I don't say, hey, you're clearly on the show's payroll for your absurd defenses of all the ridiculous plot points of the show, quit causing me to be exposed to your thoughts.

I give you the benefit of the doubt and consider your arguments as those in good faith. Your views, in the thousands and thousands of words you've written on WoT, have been made abundantly clear. But this is a discussion forum, and I welcome you to discuss. I think this is an appropriate attitude to have, regardless of the magnitude of our disagreement.

[fionwe1987]

My views on the show have been consistently clear to you, eh? Remarkable, since they haven't been clear to me, and I'm not sure what is consistent about it. Care to fill me in?

[IFR]

6 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

My views on the show have been consistently clear to you, eh? Remarkable, since they haven't been clear to me, and I'm not sure what is consistent about it. Care to fill me in?

If this is not an insincere response, we can take it to PM if you'd like and we can tell each other what our respective positions are, trying our best to fairly characterize one another's position. It might even be a healthy exercise.

Edited October 16, 2023 by IFR

[Wouter]

On 10/12/2023 at 9:12 PM, Arakasi said:

It’s clear Ishamael wasn’t going at full power there. He is playing the long game and for him the victory is turning Rand to the dark. He had zero interest in defeating him there. Getting Rand injured helps that.

I generally enjoyed the finale, but I don't know what Ishamael was really doing. If he was really going full to break through Egwene's defensive weaves, that would be disappointing. At face value, Ishy got defeated way too easily.

It's not clear to me what happened. Did Ishy really die, or was it an illusion (or did he die, but will the DO resurrect him in the same body and he knows that, which would come down to the same thing - Fares Fares remains in the show)?

Was he, to some extent, working with Lanfear's plan - she would help Rand kill Ishy and she said so openly. Did Ishamael willingly play along, is there a good cop/bad cop routine going on and he is giving Lanfear a shot at turning him? But then, why release the other Forsaken? I guess this would still be explainable by him not trusting Lanfear in any case, wanting to keep her in check and to keep Rand and co on their toes.

Another interpretation is that he had planned to drive Rand to despair by having his friends one by one be defeated or turned to the shadow, but if so he wasn't very far along and his chances to realise this were always slim. In that case, he would have decided to give up when things went south along that front, but still, why the entire setup with the convoluted gentling by remote damane? What was his plan with Mat, did he actually plan for what happened (but even Min's view didn't quite predict that)?

I hope we hear more about that in between seasons, or at least during season 3 we get some more insights. And I hope Fares has not left the show alltogether. If he has, we could still get Moridin later, I suppose, with another actor.

On 10/13/2023 at 11:40 PM, Werthead said:

I always thought Rand hitting Blademaster level in a couple of months was pure bullshit, but I did rationalise it as some of his last-life Lews Therin training coming through subconsciously. With centuries to practice with the blade, Lews/Rand and any of the Forsaken should be able to kill any modern-day "blademaster" in seconds (Lan beating

Demandred was a bit cheesy for that, but at least they had Demandred get winded by fighting half a dozen lower-tier characters first, which kinda makes it work).

While I agree LTT's knowledge and skill was accessed by Rand in that scene (and the show could have gone that route against Turak, though the Indy moment wasn't bad either), I don't think centuries of practice makes sense. Demandred and LTT could use the power as a weapon, and they had access to "shocklances" as well. No way swords would have been very important to them in a military sense.

18 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Ingtar's reveal as a darkfriend was shot, and deleted.  Will probably be released at some point.

It's for the best, considering they really didn't set that up well at all. Another victom of Barney leaving the show. However, it is a bit grating, seen over the whole season, that the fade nailed to the door has no apparent explanation in the show (Fain may have powers in the show but at this point, he doesn't disobey Ishamael, so why would he turn on the Fade?) and that Ingtar's conversation with Perrin is in there but without any followup (other than it having some bearing on Liandrin and maybe Lanfear).

4 hours ago, Arakasi said:

He’s also very certain Ishamael isn’t coming back which seems an odd thing to think.

Let's hope he doesn't know more than we do, concerning the actor.

What I did end up appreciating in the finale, was Mat and the heroes of the horn. I feared this part would be cheesy, but it was maybe the best part of the finale. Lan and Moiraine reconnecting was good also, though Lan snatching arrows from the air was really over the top.

I didn't mind Moiraine channeling at the ships, there are multiple ways to justify a way past the oaths ("aes sedai"/accepted in direct danger, the dragon in danger and thus the whole world including Moiraine herself, she feels threatened by the damane,...).

I also appreciated the Whitecloaks being competent, using sound tactics (and wouldn't Ishamael have been aware of them, he does have at least one prominent Whitecloak spy in the show cfr the cold opening of season 2?) by masking their approach and prioritising the biggest threat: the damane. I even felt for the Bornhalds when Geofram was killed by Perrin, he didn't really deserve it even though Valda did. In the books he was killed by the Seanchan. In the show, Dain actually has good reasons to hate Perrin.

[fionwe1987]

6 minutes ago, IFR said:

If this is not an insincere response, we can take it to PM if you'd like and we can tell each other what our respective positions are, trying our best to fairly characterize one another's position. It might even be a healthy exercise.

No. Please do so publicly, or not at all. 

[Corvinus85]

7 minutes ago, Wouter said:

While I agree LTT's knowledge and skill was accessed by Rand in that scene (and the show could have gone that route against Turak, though the Indy moment wasn't bad either), I don't think centuries of practice makes sense. Demandred and LTT could use the power as a weapon, and they had access to "shocklances" as well. No way swords would have been very important to them in a military sense.

Swordplay was more of a sport for them, but they were very good at it. It was re-discovered in the period of the long decline when society started to break down long before the breakout of the war so they had time to hone their skills. When Rand fights Be'lal in the Stone, Rand can barely hold him off, and Be'lal wants Rand to grab Callandor for him so he's not trying to kill him.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Corvinus85

[IFR]

3 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

No. Please do so publicly, or not at all. 

Again, assuming that you are being sincere, I would like to point out (respectfully) that this would be considered a derailment of the thread.

I am more than happy to engage in this exercise with you. I actually think it would be fun. But carrying this out would be just a sideshow spectacle. I honestly don't see why this can't be done via PM. It's not necessary to have an audience to check how well we've understood each other, unless a spectacle is what you're after.

At any rate, if you want to pursue this conversation further, then PM me. I will gladly respond.