Wheel of Time 4: Burning Threads [Book Spoilers]

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

Nevermind

Edited October 26, 2023 by ASOIAFrelatedusername

[IlyaP]

5 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Thank you, now I know that the series is irredeemable. It doesn't matter whether or not it "worked" for TV, this is just too big of a character assassination for Rand.

A helpful suggestion? My brother said this to me when the show came out, which helped me enjoy the series: 

Don't treat this as a direct adaptation of the books. No show will ever be able to accomplish that. What I have imagined in my head versus what you have in your head versus what @Arakasi has in their head are all going to be slightly different and there's no way anyone could ever recreated what each of us individually imagined. Or heard, for that matter. (I love Robert Berry's soundtrack for the books/game and actively dislike whatever the hell it is that Lorne Balfe "composed" for this show.)

So instead, just treat this as a different turning of the wheel, where the books are one turning and the show is another turning. As the books suggest, things happen again and again, with differences along the way. Which is what this is. Put aside any notion of "canon" or anything, and just appreciate it as being that, and it'll make it easier to enjoy. Even if whole is never greater than the sum of its parts, in my estimation. 

[Myrddin]

2 hours ago, Arakasi said:

The series often is boring because there is basically no threat to the main characters. You have a bunch of untrained kids just beating these baddies because of the plot armor that T’avern the Boy Who Lived was. 

So, Harry Potter.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

Nevermind

Edited October 26, 2023 by ASOIAFrelatedusername

[IlyaP]

40 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

No. Seriously no. They want to make money of Robert Jordan's work, they are going to be judged by Robert Jordan's work. If they want to call their characters Rand, Nynaeve, Mat, Egwene, etc., they better make sure that these characters actually ARE Rand, Nynaeve, Mat, Egwene, etc..

And it's not as like season 1 was outstanding either.

Covid and Harris' departure caused massive problems across seasons 1 and 2, as the showrunners have noted. They've done the best they can with what they have to capture the spirit of the books, as long-time WoT fans themselves. But with a limitation of 8 episodes per season, a finite budget, and a cast that will age, changes will need to be made to make it work for the visual medium. 

So as the Romans wisely said, de gustibus non est disputandum. 

[Gertrude]

Personally, I have always loved the story of WoT, but not the way it was written. There are some of us that are reveling in the fact that changes are being made. Please do not follow the books slavishly, because that's when I would stop enjoying it.

They are not going to please everyone. And before anyone calls me 'not a real fan', let me assure you I am. Just because I don't enjoy it the same way or for the same reasons as you doesn't mean I am not a fan of the series or that your way to enjoy it is the right way.

[Arakasi]

So you want them to be judged on whether they get the characters right? I guess that rules out Sanderson too. After all he didn’t get Mat right. Or others. Heck Jordan himself didn’t do his characters right as shown by the crap that was books 8-10.

[Jace, Extat]

The Chosen were my favorites. I read for them alone. 

So don't judge me for judging y'all for readin' wrong. 

[karaddin]

Personally the prudishness of the Two Rivers folk was more of a bug than a feature, I hated that shit and I'm glad to leave it behind. It's not surprising that if you share their view of morality rather than mine that you'd dislike this though, you got to enjoy the way it was in the books and I'll enjoy the way it is in the show.

10 hours ago, IFR said:

In the show, Rand doesn't really have much agency. He's effortlessly manipulated by Lanfear, and only the intercession of Moiraine saves him from being Lanfear's puppet.

It is, by the way, Lanfear and Moiraine who plot an elaborate spectacle to fulfill the prophecy announcing the Dragon Reborn. Rand is virtually uninvolved in this too (Egwene is the main force in defeating Ishamael, with Rand and Perrin serving minor roles).

You realize that Moiraine had exactly the same amount of agency as Rand right? Her entire season arc was manipulated by Lanfear into doing exactly what she wanted. If you don't like Lanfear pulling that off its fine, but its not some agenda to empower the women and laugh at the men when the 'good' female character is just as much of a puppet.

7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I'm still holding out hope for Aginor. He is sufficiently different from the other male Forsaken to meet the criteria the show writers seem to be going for.

I can certainly see his personality/backstory being fused with one of the other Forsakens location and actions, we really only need 1 Forsaken suffering LTT envy syndrome. You could probably make fusing him with Asmodean work as well. I'm doubting we have Dashiva as an OG Forsaken though, although I'm basing that on my continuing assumption of Taimandred. If Taim stays as a neo Forsaken then I guess having Aginor still hanging in the Black Tower can work.

[IlyaP]

2 hours ago, Jace, Extat said:

The Chosen were my favorites. I read for them alone. 

So don't judge me for judging y'all for readin' wrong. 

The beatings will continue until tastes improve!

 

(Kidding! KIDDING!) 

[Gertrude]

Hey, if the Chosen in the books were as interesting as they are on the show, then yeah, that would be worth reading. Most of them ... are not. Jace is wrong. :p

Edited October 26, 2023 by Gertrude

[Jace, Extat]

42 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

The beatings will continue until tastes improve!

 

(Kidding! KIDDING!) 

 

15 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Hey, if the Chosen in the books were as interesting as they are on the show, then yeah, that would be worth reading. Most of them ... are not. Jace is wrong. :p

Jace, wrong? That doesn't sound possible. Alternatively-Correct, though...

Idk, I just remember by the time I hit like books 6 and 7 I was reading for the villains, I loved 'em. They're all hammin it up in-between chapters. The Seanchan are one of my favorite fantasy societies ever. 

[IFR]

4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Personally, I have always loved the story of WoT, but not the way it was written. There are some of us that are reveling in the fact that changes are being made. Please do not follow the books slavishly, because that's when I would stop enjoying it.

They are not going to please everyone. And before anyone calls me 'not a real fan', let me assure you I am. Just because I don't enjoy it the same way or for the same reasons as you doesn't mean I am not a fan of the series or that your way to enjoy it is the right way.

Come on. Did you miss the part where ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Quote

Well if that's your opinion, you are free to hold it. Others will disagree.

Obviously they are stating their preference and what would make the show enjoyable to them.

It's honestly puzzling why people who like this show are taking criticism of this show as a personal attack on them and their taste. I had a similar discussion with fionwe, where despite having taken pains to say "in my opinion" and "it's all subjective" many times, they believed for some reason I was trying to force my view on them.

Seriously. Why is the dialogue breaking down here? Disagreement is not the same as declaring your opinion is wrong and you should change it.

It's fine that you think the books are flawed, with room for improvement. I agree with you, in fact. I disagree with you that the show is making these improvements - my problem is the show's narrative choices are almost uniformly worse than the books. It's actually incredible how substantially inferior the show has managed to be.

But you disagree. Fine. You state why you think as you do, and I state why I think as I do. That is the discussion. Maybe you'll be persuaded by my thoughts, or maybe I'll be persuaded by your thoughts. Or maybe not. No one is trying to force you to stop enjoying the show.

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

You realize that Moiraine had exactly the same amount of agency as Rand right? Her entire season arc was manipulated by Lanfear into doing exactly what she wanted. If you don't like Lanfear pulling that off its fine, but its not some agenda to empower the women and laugh at the men when the 'good' female character is just as much of a puppet.

Lanfear manipulated everyone, including Ishamael.

In the books, Rand was often manipulated, but he did show agency. He was manipulated by Moiraine, but also frustrated her with his resistance to her ploys. He was manipulated by Lanfear, but again was constantly frustrating her with his resistance. 

Rand in the show is completely different. His actions are almost competely at the behest of others. He's basically luggage for other characters to use.

Moiraine was manipulated, by she often shows agency in the show.

Anyway, we can go back and forth on this, but I think it's another case of we agree to disagree. I speculate that this pattern of others usurping Rand's agency will be ongoing. We'll see in the next season what happens.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

Nevermind

Edited October 26, 2023 by ASOIAFrelatedusername

[Gertrude]

8 hours ago, IFR said:

Seriously. Why is the dialogue breaking down here? Disagreement is not the same as declaring your opinion is wrong and you should change it.

,,,

But you disagree. Fine. You state why you think as you do, and I state why I think as I do. That is the discussion. Maybe you'll be persuaded by my thoughts, or maybe I'll be persuaded by your thoughts. Or maybe not. No one is trying to force you to stop enjoying the show.

My issue is that ASOIFRelatedUserName hasn't actually tried to engage in discussion. We've been here for two seasons talking about why we liked or didn't like things in the show, they haven't. their main take seems to basically be 'it's not like the books'. That sounds an awful lot like the main criticism the White Cloaks or the Black Tower have to offer - it's not like the books, therefore it's bad and people who like it are not fans and the writers are trying to sabotage the show.

So the wider discussion already has some built-in baggage. If you drop in and don't really offer any insights on the show other than to hate on it, then yeah, I will have a kneejerk reaction because the well has been poisoned.

[IFR]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

My issue is that ASOIFRelatedUserName hasn't actually tried to engage in discussion. We've been here for two seasons talking about why we liked or didn't like things in the show, they haven't. their main take seems to basically be 'it's not like the books'. That sounds an awful lot like the main criticism the White Cloaks or the Black Tower have to offer - it's not like the books, therefore it's bad and people who like it are not fans and the writers are trying to sabotage the show.

So the wider discussion already has some built-in baggage. If you drop in and don't really offer any insights on the show other than to hate on it, then yeah, I will have a kneejerk reaction because the well has been poisoned.

I didn't realize you were acting as quality control for opinions in this thread.

ASOIAFrelatedusernsme stated that they do not approve of the changes that have been made. People quote them and say, no, you're wrong, the show in fact improves on the books. ASOIAF responds to dispute those who quote them.

I don't see your comment here:

Quote

Hey, if the Chosen in the books were as interesting as they are on the show, then yeah, that would be worth reading. Most of them ... are not. 

being more insightful than their comment here:

Quote

Covid and Harris' departures caused problems yes, but I fail to see how they are responsible for the horrid adaptational  choices in the first season.

And if time really is an issue, why waste it on stuff like Stepin or a adding more to the relationship between Rand and Lanfear? Or introduce the possibility of a female Dragon?

Really the first 3 books should have been the easiest ones to adapt.

The above is a criticism of substance. It is valid to say the show wastes its time on purely ancillary and uninteresting plot points, time that could have better been spent on other things, like developing the main characters. I agree with their criticism and welcome it here in this discussion of the show. 

I think their opinions are breath of fresh air that breaks up the tedium of what otherwise is a hivemind of (in my opinion) nearly uncritical acceptance of the many flaws of the show from people who desparately want to enjoy something that they can't admit is a CW-level show with a glossy budget.

Which - because apparently this needs to be mentioned repeatedly - is fine. People are free to like whatever they want, even awful shows. And others are free to criticize the aforementioned awful shows.

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, IFR said:

I think their opinions are breath of fresh air that breaks up the tedium of what otherwise is a hivemind of (in my opinion) nearly uncritical acceptance of the many flaws of the show from people who desparately want to enjoy something that they can't admit is a CW-level show with a glossy budget.

Batwoman CW or Superman & Lois CW? Because there is a difference. 

[Arakasi]

The point is most of us here like the show and like discussion of it. We enjoy theorycrafting and thinking what might happen. You however hate/dislike the show and have said so repeatedly. There is no common ground with you so you’re just not worth engaging with. There are places who share your opinion however on this so I’m not sure why you don’t come in there instead of popping on here every three days to yuck our yum. No matter how much you tell us this is trash we are still going to like it. And at some point it’s hard to not take it personally when someone says what you enjoy is trash.

Edit: Why not go make a WoT show is trash thread and then you can go post in there alone to your hearts content. I can then ignore it and you can ignore us.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Arakasi

[IlyaP]

...yuck our yum?

[Arakasi]

2 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

...yuck our yum?

Probably something I picked up from some of the YouTube communities I follow. But a big thing in niche communities is talking positively about things that maybe aren’t popular or have widespread appeal. And those communities don’t really want to have to act constantly defensive about things they enjoy. So if we’re all having fun people just don’t want people to drop in and disrupt that. Simple enough.