Born To Be Psychopaths?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

14 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

You wouldn't be saying that plus or minus hundred years from now, let alone in a medieval setup. So let's stick to the text and not wherever your utopia is

I would. You wouldn't. You want everyone to be like you, because it makes you feel better to imagine everyone would do the same horrible things you apparently think you would do They wouldn't. Lots of people stood against murder in the past. You know...there's this famous religion....hmmm, I think it's called "Christianity" around for about 2,000 years. Hmmm, it's almost like one of its core tenants is....turning the other cheek...and not murdering people. But here me out, there ...are all these other religions too, that also talk about not murdering people. It's almost like your idea of the past...is...actually wrong. 

To quote you, "You don't understand history by being a conservative." (I.e. You clearly don't understand history)

Also your "reason has left the chat" left the chat a long time ago, when people are trying to claim murder is somehow a legal action to punish law breakers, lol. It's so idiotic as to make me question the intelligence of a lot of people in this forum. P.s. In case you didn' tknow : Arya's actions were illegal. They weren't legal, at all. 

Finally some characters I personally relate to : I'll give you examples : Brienne of Tarth. Ser Duncan the Tall. The Elder Brother of Quiet Isle. Septon Meribald. Beric Dondarrion (or the idea of him). Samwell Tarly, Ellaria Sand. Even Daenerys and Jon Snow and Catelyn Stark to an extent. All of them exist in this world, too. Arya is not the sole kind of character in these books. Progressive characters with progressive sociological views exist in this world. In fact, I'd argue the books themselves (as written by the author) have many ...very obvious progressive messages (that are probably flying over your head). (a note : GRRM very clearly leans left, if you don't believe me, use google. He was left wing before I was even born)

Also note : I was a History major. I studied History, and your concept of it is laughably wrong. 

Also another note : You know...there are SOO many characters in these books who....don't premeditatedly murder people. Most of them in fact. The idea that Arya is like a normal representative of morality in these books is just wrong. Hot Pie and Gendry, two characters who go through a lot of the same experiences as her, are much less okay with murder than she is. Do you know who would probably disapprove of Arya's actions? Eddard Stark, who would kill Daeron legally, and with a purpose, rather than as a punitive action (Eddard is not doing it as a punitive action, I don't believe, but as a preventative action)

Edited October 19, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

What I find funny in this chat, is I see two basic sides, equally with 0 logic. Thinking Arya is a psychopath....is wrong, and I think affected by bias (against the Starks or not lliking Arya specifically). Thinking Arya's actions were a legally justified action...is also wrong though, and also biased (because the posters like Arya essentially). Like, come on folks. Take a few steps back and actually think what you are saying. Saying Arya is a bad as Roose Bolton is ridiculous. Saying Arya is completely morally good is also ridiculous, or that all her actions are what "everyone would do" is equally as ridiculous. Arya is written by GRRM as a gray character. She is written as a sympathetic character. We should have empathy for her. However, having empathy and blindly defending everything she does...are not the same thing. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

What I find funny in this chat, is I see two basic sides, equally with 0 logic. Thinking Arya is a psychopath....is wrong, and I think affected by bias (against the Starks or not lliking Arya specifically). Thinking Arya's actions were a legally justified action...is also wrong though, and also biased (because the posters like Arya essentially). Like, come on folks. Take a few steps back and actually think what you are saying. Saying Arya is a bad as Roose Bolton is ridiculous. Saying Arya is completely morally good is also ridiculous, or that all her actions are what "everyone would do" is equally as ridiculous. Arya is written by GRRM as a gray character. She is written as a sympathetic character. We should have empathy for her. However, having empathy and blindly defending everything she does...are not the same thing. 

I think I tend to agree with this.  While Arya likely has mental issues, psychopathy isn't one of them.  She could be suffering post traumatic stress or something like that, and she is definitely becoming too comfortable with violence for my liking.  It's a good thing she has a strong moral code; if not, I could see her being a pretty serious criminal.  But she isn't, nor do I see her as hopeless, like Lord Varys appears to.  Heck, he seems to want the Starks to be worse off than most of their enemies do.

And as I've said before, I very much disapprove of her murder of Dareon, and Raff for that matter.  They may deserve death, but it shouldn't be Arya doing it.  She has no right to do so, and I've never said she did.  My earlier post was pointing out that Dareon being a deserter wasn't the main reason she killed him, though it did provide a hook for her to justify it.

I think if she breaks away from the Faceless Men and finds a safe environment, she can recover.  She hasn't lost her identity or her moral compass, so she has something to build on.  She just needs a worthwhile purpose, and a pack.  The Faceless Men are attempting to provide that for now, but they are a really bad influence.

[SerDuncan]

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I would. You wouldn't. You want everyone to be like you, because it makes you feel better to imagine everyone would do the same horrible things you apparently think you would do They wouldn't.

Imagine!? Let me tell you something about your dear history, it didn't start 2000 years ago. For the majority of our time here which is nowhere as low as 2000 years, we have killed or been killed. So called civilization has just replaced the sticks with guns, the stakes of need with greed. Get out of your sheltered existence and look at the world for what it is. Bald monkeys taking turns screwing each other.

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Lots of people stood against murder in the past. You know...there's this famous religion....hmmm, I think it's called "Christianity" around for about 2,000 years. Hmmm, it's almost like one of its core tenants is....turning the other cheek...and not murdering people. But here me out, there ...are all these other religions too, that also talk about not murdering people. It's almost like your idea of the past...is...actually wrong. 

Let me guess, dinosaurs are fake?

And there was also something called slavery, the Inquisition, the Crusades and a Holocaust.

I'm talking millions of years of primal instinct, not dressing up and playing the insufferable cunt for a few centuries. One generation going feral is all its going to take, all our so called knowledge is just passed down, not genetic. What is seared in is the drive to consume and procreate, much like any virus.

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

To quote you, "You don't understand history by being a conservative." (I.e. You clearly don't understand history)

What history is that? Made up fairy tales or cold hard evidence in your face?

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Also your "reason has left the chat" left the chat a long time ago, when people are trying to claim murder is somehow a legal action to punish law breakers, lol. It's so idiotic as to make me question the intelligence of a lot of people in this forum. P.s. In case you didn' tknow : Arya's actions were illegal. They weren't legal, at all. 

For the damnth fucking time, they don't live in 21st century Scandinavia. 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Ser Duncan the Tall

Lmao, who do you think I am child

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Finally some characters I personally relate to : I'll give you examples : Brienne of Tarth. Ser Duncan the Tall. The Elder Brother of Quiet Isle. Septon Meribald. Beric Dondarrion (or the idea of him). Samwell Tarly, Ellaria Sand. Even Daenerys and Jon Snow and Catelyn Stark to an extent. All of them exist in this world, too.

None of them bitched and moaned about killing. In fact half of them have kill counts more than Arya. And Daenerys? She orgasmed to the slaughter of hundred commonfolk last we saw her. Now that's a character raised abused and exposed to the trauma of dislocation, miscarriage, marital rape (regardless how much ever she thought she enjoyed it) and desensitized by war and the burden of rule, I'd like to see your worldview after a stint as a Dothraki wife and/or an entitled inbred brat. 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Progressive characters with progressive sociological views exist in this world. In fact, I'd argue the books themselves (as written by the author) have many ...very obvious progressive messages (that are probably flying over your head). (a note : GRRM very clearly leans left, if you don't believe me, use google. He was left wing before I was even born)

Plausible causality above all. Accurate portrayal of such a society doesn't include your idealistic bull.

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Also note : I was a History major. I studied History, and your concept of it is laughably wrong. 

Real history began in the caves and if you'd like to go back further, the oceans, not in paradise

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Also another note : You know...there are SOO many characters in these books who....don't premeditatedly murder people. Most of them in fact. The idea that Arya is like a normal representative of morality in these books is just wrong. Hot Pie and Gendry, two characters who go through a lot of the same experiences as her, are much less okay with murder than she is. Do you know who would probably disapprove of Arya's actions? Eddard Stark, who would kill Daeron legally, and with a purpose, rather than as a punitive action (Eddard is not doing it as a punitive action, I don't believe, but as a preventative action)

Nothing better a deterrent than an ominously missing deserter.

Edited October 19, 2023 by SerDuncan

[SerDuncan]

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Thinking Arya's actions were a legally justified action...is also wrong though, and also biased (because the posters like Arya essentially).

I don't really like her fyi, but as someone said, laws are crap; Slavery was legal until a short time ago (near dear history). Apartheid not even decades. The word you should put there is morally, that compass instilled by her upbringing.

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, sifth said:

So have I. Deron still committed a capital crime and therefore Daeron deserved to die. It's honestly that simple and it's why I say your comparing it to something like murder in the real world is oil and water. There is no due process in GRRM's world and people charged with a crime have no rights. Heck only the high born are even given a trial.

Daeron wanted to get drunk with hookers for the rest of his life and broke his vow. You break the vow you lose your head, those are the laws of GRRM's universe and a law Daeron knew full well. We're literally told by Ned Stark, one of the most morally good people in the series, that deserters are bad people in the first chapter of the first book and therefore if they commit this crime and are caught for doing it, their life is forfeit. Heck if Ned or any of his sons saw Daeron and knew what he did, they'd probably have killed him as well, because he broke the law and the Starks honor it.

That is a bunch of nonsense as the author is not in favor of executing oathbreakers nor is this a custom that prevails outside of Westeros. Dareon should and would be safe in Braavos from criminal persecution if some little girl wouldn't murder him insidiously.

We also see special cases and excuses why people like Jaime Lannister, Lewyn Martell, Jon Snow, Mance Rayder, etc. are not executed for their broken vows. The idea that it is okay for Arya to pull what she did is ridiculous. If we were thinking that then we should actually hope or think Arya should execute Jon Snow where she to chance on him beyond the Wall overseeing him fucking Ygritte.

It is also wrong that only highborn are given a trial. The murderer Chett got one, for instance.

The notion that Robb or Bran are unhinged enough to murder people on a whim in another country is also quite ridiculous. It is already quite extreme for Robb to execute Rickard Karstark for his betrayal - there are rigid values and politics, and the competent politicians knows when to go with which.

In context, I'd agree with some stuff above that Arya doesn't murder Dareon (and he is spelled that way, he doesn't have the Targaryen royal name) because he is an oathbreaker but because she perceives him as an asshead towards Sam, etc. Arya has no evidence or reason to believe that Sam is not an oathbreaker, either. He says he wants to continue to Oldtown, etc. ... but couldn't he lie? She doesn't know. Also, of course, couldn't Dareon have a change of heart and remember his duties? Killing people means they can't reconsider ... and Dareon never hurt or harmed anyone. Sam and Gilly are more or less grown up people in their society, so Sam could try to, you know, find some work of his own rather than insisting Dareon feed and care for him.

It is not nice of him to abandon him ... but I'd have likely done the same as the old man, the fat lordling, and his wildling whore are not my companions or buddies of choice - but the result of a fucked-up society condemning to a life of forced labor in a prison colony thanks to the lies of a lord's slutty daughter. The guy could feel beholden to Sam, etc. ... but there is moral imperative that he does. Also, of course, no vow or pledge sworn or made under duress is worth anything.

I say everybody who take the black to avoid capital punishment is free to leave as soon as he is able. Because he never actually felt the calling to serve at the Wall. There is a fundamental difference between actual volunteers - like Jon and Sam - and the many men who were forced to take the black.

15 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

As opposed to a 9-year-old travelling to another continent on her own to become an assassin?

Arya didn't leave Westeros because she wanted to travel. And obviously she as a nine-year-old was ill-suited to travel and only saved from slavery, child labor (not really), forced prostitution, etc. by way of the plot device of the magical Faceless Men coin.

If we finish the thought of the super assassin she is about to become we would still get to her being a 12-year-old at the end of the series ... which means ill-suited to make a living at another place especially if she wanted to stop murdering or seriously injuring people. Which she likely would have to do if she wanted to make a living among the common people/scum she is accustomed to live with both in Braavos and the Riverlands.

[SeanF]

Law, and justice, barely exist in the world that Martin has created (one can argue how plausible that is).  Justice is indistinguishable from vengeance, and law is, essentially, a set of codes of conduct which any adult with a weapon is expected to enforce.

So, Arya stands out from the rest, due to her age, but not in terms of her conduct.

[Lord Varys]

Regarding Arya's state of mind ... remember how normal children like Lommy, Hot Pie and even Gendry are compared to her. The lessons Arya takes from her traumas are given to her by Jaqen who is a serial killer and assassin.

Her mantra is a way to express her powerlessness ... but it becomes something very scary and very different when she acquires the actual means to kill. First through Jaqen and then with her own hands.

Even if you say she is kind of justified to murder the guys on her list (not sure what Cersei ever did to her to deserve death, but whatever) ... on her way to acquire the means and ability to try to do that she loses much more of her herself than the thing we usually refer to as 'innocence'. At this point she can murder anyone for any pretext or reason given to her - shown, for instance, by the murders of both Dareon and insurance guy. And that will only get worse. She won't wake up one day realizing that 'murder is wrong'. 

And to be crystal clear here - the fact that Braavosi society allows a suicide and assassin death cult to offer its service to the people doesn't mean (1) the author approves of that shit, nor (2) that it is okay or good that Arya is learning her future trade with those guys.

That is as wrong as Ned having his children while he cuts off other people's heads.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Law, and justice, barely exist in the world that Martin has created (one can argue how plausible that is).  Justice is indistinguishable from vengeance, and law is, essentially, a set of codes of conduct which any adult with a weapon is expected to enforce.

So, Arya stands out from the rest, due to her age, but not in terms of her conduct.

Not completely. Authority to sentence and execute is restricted to lords. Lords are also the ones who declare outlaws - which are essentially criminals that could run away. If people are properly outlawed it would be okay, I guess, to kill them if you are just a random person.

Vengeance is part of noble blood feuds, etc. but it is not part of the normal upholding of law and order as, say, depicted by Randyll Tarly judgments in AFfC or Unwin Peake's trials in FaB.

[SeanF]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not completely. Authority to sentence and execute is restricted to lords. Lords are also the ones who declare outlaws - which are essentially criminals that could run away. If people are properly outlawed it would be okay, I guess, to kill them if you are just a random person.

Vengeance is part of noble blood feuds, etc. but it is not part of the normal upholding of law and order as, say, depicted by Randyll Tarly judgments in AFfC or Unwin Peake's trials in FaB.

The BWB take the law into their own hands, as do the Sparrows, and the "trials" we witness are farcical.  In AFFC, the law is whatever Randyll Tarly says it is. Standards are likely disintegrating, as a result of war, but even in peacetime, Mycah, is casually murdered without trial.

Edited October 19, 2023 by SeanF

[SerDuncan]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Killing people means they can't reconsider ... and Dareon never hurt or harmed anyone.

PEDO

And the realm is harmed by every pair of hands lost. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya should execute Jon Snow where she to chance on him beyond the Wall overseeing him fucking Ygritte.

That actually ended up saving the realm/ postponing doom

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is also wrong that only highborn are given a trial. The murderer Chett got one, for instance.

Seen Tarly's trials? What a farcical mockery of justice. Which one do you think is more prevalent?

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is already quite extreme for Robb to execute Rickard Karstark for his betrayal - there are rigid values and politics, and the competent politicians knows when to go with which.

That was a political blunder, not a legal one. Heck, if you're the king who crowned himself, pretty much nothing is illegal.

But you couldn't really hope to be a monarch if you allow that kind of insubordination.

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In context, I'd agree with some stuff above that Arya doesn't murder Dareon (and he is spelled that way, he doesn't have the Targaryen royal name) because he is an oathbreaker but because she perceives him as an asshead towards Sam, etc. Arya has no evidence or reason to believe that Sam is not an oathbreaker, either. He says he wants to continue to Oldtown, etc. ... but couldn't he lie? She doesn't know. Also, of course, couldn't Dareon have a change of heart and remember his duties? Killing people means they can't reconsider ... and Dareon never hurt or harmed anyone. Sam and Gilly are more or less grown up people in their society, so Sam could try to, you know, find some work of his own rather than insisting Dareon feed and care for him.

NOW THAT IS CALLED PULLING SHIT OUT OF YOUR ASS

And that PEDO isn't a harmless little kid. That singer Marillion (Tolkien?) is another, in a series of bards with similar characteristics Martin chose to portray that way. He could have shown Dareon to be a criminal openly, but the denial adds all the more to his conniving personality. After all, she was asking for it and she deserved it are the two most common excuses one encounters.

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not nice of him to abandon him

The fate of the realm being endangered by the lethargy of a rascal is more than NOT NICE

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

but I'd have likely done the same as the old man, the fat lordling, and his wildling whore are not my companions or buddies of choice

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

but the result of a fucked-up society condemning to a life of forced labor in a prison colony thanks to the lies of a lord's slutty daughter.

Well, I'm reporting you officially, the sensitive vegan chauvinist.

If thats how you view women, no surprises for Arya. IIRC you wanted Sansa to seduce Littlefinger.

13. year. old.

Good to know that you'd be a proud deserter. And it's not forced labour, they are defending the realm, not working 10 yos on 12 hour shifts. And there are criminals in the Watch who have reformed in the face of the biggest existential threat there was, not break the vows (if you fucking cared so much, why swear em in the first place and break em like a pathetic miserable coward) and run

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The guy could feel beholden to Sam, etc. ... but there is moral imperative that he does. Also, of course, no vow or pledge sworn or made under duress is worth anything.

Duress? That cunt without balls would have creamed to continue living regardless of whether it was hell that awaited him.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I say everybody who take the black to avoid capital punishment is free to leave as soon as he is able. Because he never actually felt the calling to serve at the Wall. There is a fundamental difference between actual volunteers - like Jon and Sam - and the many men who were forced to take the black.

Oh these scum are now beside you on that horse huh. The poor rapist who was forced to take the black. boo hoo

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya didn't leave Westeros because she wanted to travel. And obviously she as a nine-year-old was ill-suited to travel and only saved from slavery, child labor (not really), forced prostitution, etc. by way of the plot device of the magical Faceless Men coin.

From what we see lately from you here, that would make you cream

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If we finish the thought of the super assassin she is about to become we would still get to her being a 12-year-old at the end of the series ... which means ill-suited to make a living at another place especially if she wanted to stop murdering or seriously injuring people. Which she likely would have to do if she wanted to make a living among the common people/scum she is accustomed to live with both in Braavos and the Riverlands.

Deny the horse you snobby snail

[SerDuncan]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if you say she is kind of justified to murder the guys on her list

You're their saviour arentya

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

(not sure what Cersei ever did to her to deserve death, but whatever)

Are you that dumb or just pretending to be?

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Vengeance is part of noble blood feuds, etc

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

y would have to do if she wanted to make a living among the common people/scum she is accustomed to live

SNOB

[SerDuncan]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Mycah, is casually murdered without trial

Though in his case no trial would've saved him with Queen Cersei in power, after all Robert would comply with her demands just to be rid of her for that moment, a kid's life be damned. Empathy doesn't win you a kingdom, hammers and swords do

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Which she likely would have to do if she wanted to make a living among the common people/scum she is accustomed to live with both in Braavos and the Riverlands.

She never perceived them as scum, though. It’s made clear early in AGoT that she is more comfortable among commoners than among highborn people. She befriends Micah rather than Myrcella on their way to King’s Landing, for example.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

The BWB take the law into their own hands, as do the Sparrows, and the "trials" we witness are farcical.  In AFFC, the law is whatever Randyll Tarly says it is. Standards are likely disintegrating, as a result of war, but even in peacetime, Mycah, is casually murdered without trial.

All that is not normal, though, but corruption under a weak king and the breakdown of social order during a civil war. As men like Tarly restore order you get kind of whimsical lordly justice but it is justice nonetheless ... and justice delivered by a lord acting as a judge. A common murderer is not lynched or murdered by random people who think he looks like a murderer, etc. but they get some kind of trial. Chett got that and also the thugs who murdered Rego Draz in FaB.

Mycah wasn't given a trial, true, but even at a trial Joffrey's word would have prevailed, so he would have been viewed as somebody who attacked the Crown Prince. Remember how Dunk thinks that him running away from Ashford would be interpreted as him being guilty? Mycah running away might be seen as him admitting to his crime. It was still murder to kill him, of course, but people would likely agree that it was the murder of a guilty boy.

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

She never perceived them as scum, though. It’s made clear early in AGoT that she is more comfortable among commoners than among highborn people. She befriends Micah rather than Myrcella on their way to King’s Landing, for example.

Of course they are not scum to her - or not all of them. In Braavos and Westeros she does spend time with criminal elements who might eventual threaten her well-being and would then most likely be killed by her if she intended to remain in the circles they both frequented. We are reaching the point in Arya's development where people start to get sexually interested in her, so men are going to prey on her soon like they also do with Sansa already.

Pre-war Arya is very comfortable with common friends, etc. Our Arya, though, learned that Arya Stark of Winterfell has no friends among the common boys she befriended earlier. Hot Pie and Gendry both abandoned her - which hurt her. The person Arya Stark will have become by the end of the series is not very likely to imagine her life as woman to be living in some hovel or hut or farm in Braavos or Westeros. Both her identity as a Stark as well as her training and perhaps even her power as a skinchanger will set her apart from all that.

Arya is a kind of super hero/villain in the making. She already wields tremendous power and her skill set is only going to increase as the story continues. I can't imagine her career as an adult woman, but I think I do know what she is not going to do. She won't live happily ever after with some dude - not in a castle nor in a hut.

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, SerDuncan said:

For the damnth fucking time, they don't live in 21st century Scandinavia. 

Exactly!

In my own society I absolutely abhor vigilante proposals and absolutely am against capital punishment. I would never advocate for even the state killing the worst individuals. It's not even about "advocating" that whatsoever, or even "defending" it, or believing it's "right to murder".

It's about to whom we as readers extend our empathy and understanding. Funny, how the OP demands nuance and empathy, but when we have it for an actual traumatized child, instead of a pedophile deserter who knows what's at stake, we're the amoral ones? Me, I prefer to feel empathy for a 10-year-old who witnessed the worst horrors humanity can inflict upon others for over a year, than a lying self-pitying pedophile like Dareon who doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself. If he cares for nobody else but himself, then I don't see why I should care whether he's alive or dead. 

 

 

[sifth]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Exactly!

In my own society I absolutely abhor vigilante proposals and absolutely am against capital punishment. I would never advocate for even the state killing the worst individuals. It's not even about "advocating" that whatsoever, or even "defending" it, or believing it's "right to murder".

It's about to whom we as readers extend our empathy and understanding. Funny, how the OP demands nuance and empathy, but when we have it for an actual traumatized child, instead of a pedophile deserter who knows what's at stake, we're the amoral ones? Me, I prefer to feel empathy for a 10-year-old who witnessed the worst horrors humanity can inflict upon others for over a year, than a lying self-pitying pedophile like Dareon who doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself. If he cares for nobody else but himself, then I don't see why I should care whether he's alive or dead. 

 

 

This, this and THIS SOME MORE. The characters don't live in our world. There is no law and order system at place that is even remotely similar to our own. Dareon is far from the worst character in the series, when compared to Joff, Ramsay, Tywin and several others, but only because the bar has been set that high. The guy is scum for what he did to Sam, Gilly and Maester Aemon and a deserter to an order he sword to serve for life. I'm suppose to care about his existence, when he's done nothing, but scummy things in the series, just because he's not a baby killer like Tywin and Gregor or a torture like Ramsay and so on? Dareon was rotten, just because he wasn't as rotten as other characters, doesn't change that fact.

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

What I find funny in this chat, is I see two basic sides, equally with 0 logic. Thinking Arya is a psychopath....is wrong, and I think affected by bias (against the Starks or not lliking Arya specifically). Thinking Arya's actions were a legally justified action...is also wrong though, and also biased (because the posters like Arya essentially). Like, come on folks. Take a few steps back and actually think what you are saying. Saying Arya is a bad as Roose Bolton is ridiculous. Saying Arya is completely morally good is also ridiculous, or that all her actions are what "everyone would do" is equally as ridiculous. Arya is written by GRRM as a gray character. She is written as a sympathetic character. We should have empathy for her. However, having empathy and blindly defending everything she does...are not the same thing. 

It is even more easy - all characters in this series are 'grey'. Everybody has a motivation and a justification even 'monsters' like Victarion (whose POV we have), Euron, Littlefinger, Ramsay, etc. and we would know them all if we got a POV.

And then we would also got weirdos loving and defending those people like they do with Jaime - whose POV is fun and witty at times, but still the mind of narcissist who almost rapes his sister next to the corpse of their own 'love child' (which he doesn't give a fig about).

It is actually pretty scary to consider how many people actually like the Jaime guy. He is a great POV character and it is great fun to read his thoughts. But it is quite odd how many people in the readership love for not raping women and kind of liking an ugly woman ... in light of the monstrous things the guy actually did or contemplated doing.

Ditto with the Hound, etc.

Arya is a character whose actions are now reaching clear villain territory. She is murdering people for trivial reasons and pretexts. We do have empathy for her because we know her from AGoT, know the child she once was, but that shouldn't cloud our take on the Arya we meet in AFfC and ADwD.

In context, I think, it is also quite odd that some characters get similar empathy because of POV memories from their childhood, etc. or from other childhood information we get. Sandor Clegane is the prime example for that ... yet most victims of domestic abuse don't end up cutting young boys to pieces and making jokes about that, so why are so many people liking that shithead?

Vice versa, it is quite odd that Littlefinger's trauma and issues are not gaining much sympathy among the readership. We don't have his POV but we know what made him the man he is now and we also know he still has emotions. We see them best, I think, when he takes Sansa to his old home on the Fingers. Also, of course, there would have been genuine affection and feelings in him when he helped Sansa to build the snow castle. The guy is still a manipulative prick, of course, but you there is a clear and very strong human side to him. His evil actions don't come from 'evil' but from destroyed idealism, very much like Sandor's. And there is a lot of George himself in the character since he is essentially a ripoff of Arkin Ruark from Dying of the Light and similar tragic characters from George's early stories which were about failed romances and a deep-seated feeling of betrayal.

46 minutes ago, sifth said:

This, this and THIS SOME MORE. The characters don't live in our world. There is no law and order system at place that is even remotely similar to our own. Dareon is far from the worst character in the series, when compared to Joff, Ramsay, Tywin and several others, but only because the bar has been set that high. The guy is scum for what he did to Sam, Gilly and Maester Aemon and a deserter to an order he sword to serve for life. I'm suppose to care about his existence, when he's done nothing, but scummy things in the series, just because he's not a baby killer like Tywin and Gregor or a torture like Ramsay and so on? Dareon was rotten, just because he wasn't as rotten as other characters, doesn't change that fact.

That is just nonsense. There is a societal order in this world, however flawed it may be, and one part of that is that you do not go on a killing spree in a foreign state. Even in ancient civilization and 'barbaric societies' you know that you stick to the rules of your host(s) when visiting another place. You don't assume the people there talk like you, live like you, or kill for the same reasons as you.

But I don't really give a shit about Dareon. I'd say even Raff didn't deserve being murdered by a little girl disguising herself as a child prostitute. That is just a shitty thing to do in general and I won't defend or justify such an action by pointing out 'but the guy was an evil criminal'. He was ... but even he doesn't deserve to be led into a trap to be murdered in such a manner, just as his victims didn't deserve what happened to them (even if some of them were criminals and thugs, too).

[SaffronLady]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Funny, how the OP demands nuance and empathy, but when we have it for an actual traumatized child, instead of a pedophile deserter who knows what's at stake, we're the amoral ones?

LRT has a long history of being against any and every type of violence IIRC. And your current line is driving this conversation down "morality vs legality" lane, which ... technically speaking you are both correct. Dareon should die (let's just say sic semper deserters), but Arya is not a legal dispenser of justice.

[MissM]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I don't really give a shit about Dareon. I'd say even Raff didn't deserve being murdered by a little girl disguising herself as a child prostitute. That is just a shitty thing to do in general and I won't defend or justify such an action by pointing out 'but the guy was an evil criminal'. He was ... but even he doesn't deserve to be led into a trap to be murdered in such a manner, just as his victims didn't deserve what happened to them (even if some of them were criminals and thugs, too).

You're defending Raff? The gang rapist. The dude who stuck a knife into the belly of a boy who was trying to save his 13 year old sister who Raff went on to gang rape? That Raff?!

What they say about you might be true. Defending pedos and rapists in your free time.

Why Raff deserves to die many times over. Despite cheerleaders like you and your Psycho gang defending his honor. 

 

Quote

“Ser Gregor, he wasn’t paying no mind to none of our fun, but now he looks, you know how he does, and he commands that the girl be brought before him. Now the old man has to drag her out of the kitchen, and no one to blame but hisself. Ser looks her over and says, ‘So this is the whore you’re so concerned for,’ and this besotted old fool says, ‘My Layna’s no whore, ser,’ right to Gregor’s face. Ser, he never blinks, just says, ‘She is now,’ tosses the old man another silver, rips the dress off the wench, and takes her right there on the table in front of her da, her flopping and wiggling like a rabbit and making these noises. The look on the old man’s face, I laughed so hard ale was coming out me nose. Then this boy hears the noise, the son I figure, and comes rushing up from the cellar, so Raff has to stick a dirk in his belly. By then Ser’s done, so he goes back to his drinking and we all have a turn. Tobbot, you know how he is, he flops her over and goes in the back way. The girl was done fighting by the time I had her, maybe she’d decided she liked it after all, though to tell the truth I wouldn’t have minded a little wiggling. 

  The men all roared, none louder than Chiswyck himself, who laughed so hard at his own story that snot dribbled from his nose down into his scraggy grey beard. Arya stood in the shadows of the stairwell and watched him. She crept back down to the cellars without saying a word. When Weese found that she hadn’t asked about the clothes, he yanked down her breeches and caned her until blood ran down her thighs, but Arya closed her eyes and thought of all the sayings Syrio had taught her, so she scarcely felt it.

  Two nights later, he sent her to the Barracks Hall to serve at table. She was carrying a flagon of wine and pouring when she glimpsed JaqenH’ghar at his trencher across the aisle. Chewing her lip, Arya glanced around warily to make certain Weese was not in sight. Fear cuts deeper than swords, she told herself. She took a step, and another, and with each she felt less a mouse. Arya leaned close and whispered, “Chiswyck,” right in Jaqen’s ear. The Lorathi gave no sign that he had heard.