Israel - Hamas War VI

[Rippounet]

38 minutes ago, Altherion said:

They are not war crimes because one is allowed to do that as long as there is a military objective, but they make for good Hamas propaganda since Israel is not going to explain what it was they were aiming at.

At least read the damn wikipedia page about Israeli war crimes is you want us to pretend you know what you're talking about.

I will now put you on ignore for some time to preserve my brain cells.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Rippounet

[Craving Peaches]

Images of the bombed refugee camp show a large impact indent:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2023/10/31/1cb62223-122d-4d9f-b4d6-71a9f7242b8b.jpg

https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-31T142459Z_1648014252_RC2Q34A68PDK_RTRMADP_3_ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS-1698763360.jpg?w=770&resize=770%2C578&quality=80

[Ran]

I think the briefings the US chose to hold may say more about the nature of the locations and targets and sources of information. There were plenty of occasions where the US did not hold specific briefings. In 2016, the US launched hundreds of airstrikes in Libya without a single briefing.

Gaza is a very unique location with its own challenges, and it's really not surprising that in an active engagement in a dense urban area with networks of tunnels and ranges of sources of information including informers that Israel is very choosy about what it reveals.

ETA: Also just saw i24 News reporter on the ground at Sderot saying that the police informed them that as the city is largely evacuated, Iron Dome will no longer be deployed to intercept rockets. It'll be cheaper to repair the damage (and hope for very few dead or injured) than to use Iron Dome.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Ran

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, Altherion said:

They are not war crimes because one is allowed to do that as long as there is a military objective

Please explain the military objective of attacking:

• Ambulances positioned well away from buildings treating the injured

• A civilian car driving away from tanks

• A refugee camp

• People following your order to evacuate 

[kissdbyfire]

40 minutes ago, Crixus said:

How can that be controversial in a sane world?

It wouldn’t be controversial in a sane world. Sadly, though, our world is anything but sane. 

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

A civilian car driving away from tanks

 

We have no idea what happened in that particular incident, but you do realize that Hamas does not have clearly marked military vehicles? They drive around in commercially available motorbikes, pickups, and cars. 

Why was its rear so low? Bad springs... or burdened with explosives?

What was that explosion sound as it stopped and turned? A warning shot from somewhere, or maybe the passenger threw a grenade out?

Why was it going north into the area that people were told to evacuate from? Why was it approaching the Israeli armored bulldozer, and then seemed to stop only when the tank that was partially hidden came into view?

Why was there a photographer tailing them and watching to see what happened?

We have no idea. Until the IDF gives their side of it, we have a low bitrate image. It could be a tragic accident. It could be expansive rules of engagement that says that anyone with allegedly-fuel-starved Gaza who has gas for their car is Hamas-affiliated. It could be that Hamas scouts got more than they were expecting and didn't even notice the tank at all. It could be a suicide bomber got nervous.

But, yes, it could have been a family just trying to get around a road block. We don't know.

 

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

A refugee camp

Hamas uses the camps (which, if you look at footage, are practically indistinguishable from the rest of Gaza -- they have shop buildings, marketplaces, etc.) to launch rocket attacks and store munitions. There has been footage of rocket launches from camps, and journalists and the IDF have gone into tunnels beneath some of the camps.

[fionwe1987]

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Please explain the military objective of attacking:

• Ambulances positioned well away from buildings treating the injured

• A civilian car driving away from tanks

• A refugee camp

• People following your order to evacuate 

The military objective is to terrorize the population and exact collective punishment.

That is not a legitimate military objective, mind. Not to most of the world. But it is what Israel is doing. 

[kissdbyfire]

So we all know these fucking terrorists use all of Gaza and hide behind all civilians b/c they are fucking terrorists that don’t care about anyone, not even their own. Does that then make all of Gaza and all civilians “valid military targets”? That is the question here, not whether Hamas, who are nasty fucking terrorists, use this or that facility/building to hide or to launch attacks.

[Tywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It wouldn’t be controversial in a sane world. Sadly, though, our world is anything but sane. 

And the sad truth is things are getting worse and will only continue to do so. Just wait until climate change displaces tens if not hundreds of millions of people and the war for resources steps in to high gear. 

[Fragile Bird]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

And the sad truth is things are getting worse and will only continue to do so. Just wait until climate change displaces tens if not hundreds of millions of people and the war for resources steps in to high gear. 

 

I’ve said before, wait until nations start bombing boatloads of refugees. 

[Rippounet]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

And the sad truth is things are getting worse and will only continue to do so. Just wait until climate change displaces tens if not hundreds of millions of people and the war for resources steps in to high gear. 

I literally just published something along these lines on another forum.

It's been on my mind for a while, and I can't help see that some variation of the discussions we've had over the past few weeks is what awaits us in the next decades.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

We have no idea what happened in that particular incident,

A man in the car from where the incident was filmed said that the car was a civilian car, with a husband, wife and two children. In the video, the car is clearly doing a U-turn to get away from the tank.

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Why was there a photographer tailing them and watching to see what happened?

The occupants of that car said they were there to warn others to stay away, from what I read.

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Hamas uses the camps

So every time a camp, or a hospital , or a place of worship, or a residential building is hit we are supposed to assume that Hamas is using it? All the tens of thousands of places hit are all being used by Hamas, so all the dead civilians are acceptable collateral damage?

The strike hasn't revealed any tunnels going by the photos. All it has done is killed civilians, and possibly a few Hamas members who may or may not have been present.

[Altherion]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So we all know these fucking terrorists use all of Gaza and hide behind all civilians b/c they are fucking terrorists that don’t care about anyone, not even their own. Does that then make all of Gaza and all civilians “valid military targets”? That is the question here, not whether Hamas, who are nasty fucking terrorists, use this or that facility/building to hide or to launch attacks.

No, it does not. It does mean that if Hamas is hiding a rocket launcher in a refugee camp or has its headquarters in tunnels under a hospital, it is legal for Israel to attack these targets even though hospitals and refugee camps are usually off limits. However, there does have to be something military being attacked; the Israelis can't just randomly bomb anything in Gaza.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And the sad truth is things are getting worse and will only continue to do so. Just wait until climate change displaces tens if not hundreds of millions of people and the war for resources steps in to high gear. 

Exactly. And all the while the powers that be will keep going at it w/ pathetic half-measures, and that’s the optimistic view. The not so optimistic one is everyone continues doing fuck all and half the population & leaders continue denying it vigorously while they cash in all the money they’re getting from the fossil fuel lobbies worldwide. 

[Ran]

44 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

A man in the car from where the incident was filmed

Pardon me for not trusting the guy with expensive photography gear (the long lens looks like the 70-200mm f/2.8L lens from Canon that I have; and runs from $1,000 used to $2,000  new, and he has another L-series lens on the camera in his lap) who has not released his high-quality DSLR footage but instead shares a low-bitrate video where his claims cannot be verified. We have no idea who is in the car.

I allow that it may be true, but we don't know. I don't know the man. Do you?

ETA: Just now saw footage of that camp. Looked online and there are reports that several minutes after the Israeli strike, the ground shook and "sinkholes" started to form, with people falling into it and buildings collapsing. That's a pretty clear sign of a network of tunnels collapsing, if the reports are accurate.

Here from a few days ago, footage of the complete collapse of a street area after bombing because the underlying tunnel network collapsed:

According to the Israeli journalist posting this, Hamas has censored and prevented this sort of footage getting out previously, but for whatever reason this one did.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Ran

[Conflicting Thought]

46 minutes ago, Altherion said:

No, it does not. It does mean that if Hamas is hiding a rocket launcher in a refugee camp or has its headquarters in tunnels under a hospital, it is legal for Israel to attack these targets even though hospitals and refugee camps are usually off limits. However, there does have to be something military being attacked; the Israelis can't just randomly bomb anything in Gaza.

They can and they do, even if you dont want to belive it

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Gaza is a very unique location with its own challenges, and it's really not surprising that in an active engagement in a dense urban area with networks of tunnels and ranges of sources of information including informers that Israel is very choosy about what it reveals.

It's not surprising, but that's a lot more to do with Israel than it is with Gaza, IMO. 

44 minutes ago, Ran said:

ETA: Just now saw footage of that camp. Looked online and there are reports that several minutes after the Israeli strike, the ground shook and "sinkholes" started to form, with people falling into it and buildings collapsing. That's a pretty clear sign of a network of tunnels collapsing, if the reports are accurate.

Here from a few days ago, footage of the complete collapse of a street area after bombing because the underlying tunnel network collapsed:

Note that 'network of tunnels' is also a very good description of an urban sewer system, and these kinds of collapses happen routinely in places that have said sewer systems. We've seen this in many urban strikes in the past, including Kyiv. 

[Altherion]

5 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

They can and they do, even if you dont want to belive it

I meant according to the modern laws of war, not what is physically possible.

[Varysblackfyre321]

https://time.com/6330102/biden-israel-gaza-arab-americans-trump/
A poll is only showing 17 Arab Americans going to Biden.

 

I don’t want my country to re-elect a fascist even if means not ANNILATING HAMAs whatever the fuck that means I’m sure whatever geopolitical consequences for the world and even region is not worth the risk.

 

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Note that 'network of tunnels' is also a very good description of an urban sewer system, and these kinds of collapses happen routinely in places that have said sewer systems. We've seen this in many urban strikes in the past, including Kyiv. 

Yep. Saw someone sharing a video pointing that out, and you have to suppose Gaza's sewer system has not been the most well-maintained.

Could be either-or. Could be that buildings there were a local HQ, as it's right around the frontline, as well. WE've no idea about anything, as usual.

I did see one news agency say that the IDF has responded to queries about it and is reviewing, so I expect it'll be part of this evening's briefing.