Fragile Bird Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Sadly, we continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 I'm reposting my comment to Ran's post here, since the other thread looks like it's going to be closed. Why wouldn't Hamas fighters also be located in the southern portion of Gaza? If Israel is able to get control of the northern part, I'm sure that their focus will move to the southern portion, where no doubt there will be thousands of additional "legitimate military targets." Where will Israel force Palestinian civilians to move to then? They've already pushed over a million people to the south towards the border with Egypt. Interestingly, this lines up with the plan to relocate everyone into the Egyptian Sinai. I don't think that can happen though without Egypt's approval. Larry of the Lawn, Craving Peaches, Zorral and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted November 1, 2023 Author Share Posted November 1, 2023 29 minutes ago, Mudguard said: I'm reposting my comment to Ran's post here, since the other thread looks like it's going to be closed. Why wouldn't Hamas fighters also be located in the southern portion of Gaza? If Israel is able to get control of the northern part, I'm sure that their focus will move to the southern portion, where no doubt there will be thousands of additional "legitimate military targets." Where will Israel force Palestinian civilians to move to then? They've already pushed over a million people to the south towards the border with Egypt. Interestingly, this lines up with the plan to relocate everyone into the Egyptian Sinai. I don't think that can happen though without Egypt's approval. I think Hamas’ core infrastructure is in the north. For sure there are Hamas soldiers everywhere in Gaza, and the fact that you really can’t tell who is a civilian and who is a soldier makes things very difficult. It’s why the Israelis told civilians to go south, and why Hamas set up roadblocks to prevent people from going south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 14 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: I think Hamas’ core infrastructure is in the north. For sure there are Hamas soldiers everywhere in Gaza, and the fact that you really can’t tell who is a civilian and who is a soldier makes things very difficult. It’s why the Israelis told civilians to go south, and why Hamas set up roadblocks to prevent people from going south. I agree that it's a very big problem that Hamas terrorists can just blend in with the general population. It's part of the reason why I think it will be extremely difficult to root them out, and why I think it's inevitable that Israel will have to deal with the southern portion of Gaza eventually. The roadblock story doesn't sound believable to me. Hundreds of thousands have fled south, so these roadblocks aren't doing much, if they really exist. There's a lot of misinformation being released by both the IDF and Hamas. I haven't seen any credible reporting of masses of people being blocked at roadblocks, and I'm certain if that was the case, that would be a huge story and would be picked up by reputable news organizations. Most of the news stories on the roadblocks come from Israeli publications or from websites I've never heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 On the refugee camp strike - surely if it was actually a Hamas stronghold and not in fact a refugee camp, then surely the IDF spokesman in this interview with Wolf Blitzer would have argued that point rather than nodding along to Quote You knew there were civilians, you knew there were refugees there, all sorts of refugees, but you decided to still drop a bomb on that refugee camp attempting to kill this Hamas commander https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/31/wolf-idf-spokesperson-gaza-refugee-camp-airstrike-reaction-vpx.cnn Again I accept that Hamas are evil scum and that a commander likely was hiding there using refugees as a human shield, and likely was killed by the strike - the only reason I'm even questioning that is the spokesman was not at all convincing in saying that. I just don't think the solution to an evil fuck using refugees as a human shield is to blow up the human shield. Nor do I think it's particularly ethical to frame that refugee camp as a terrorist stronghold to try and spin the events in a positive light. Although I've only seen third party media publications doing that, this IDF spokesman is the only one I've seen commenting on it so this part is criticism of those media orgs not Israel. Craving Peaches and Larry of the Lawn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 13 minutes ago, karaddin said: I just don't think the solution to an evil fuck using refugees as a human shield is to blow up the human shield. But what would do if you determined said evil fuck needs to be killed or captured while using human shields? There really are no good answers. Durckad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 I'd wait for a better option than bombing a refugee camp just to get at him. But I also wouldn't have taken all the preceding actions that have resulted in the current situation so I'm not a very useful hypothetical. I know I'm beating a dead horse here in terms of what I think should have been done, but I would have prioritized attacking the support base of Hamas over directly killing their current members when they're not in the open and able to be killed without major collateral. Also a whole bunch of other things i know we don't even disagree on (not cutting off food/water/services for minimal military gain etc), so certainly nothing to argue about there. Larry of the Lawn and Craving Peaches 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Balstroko Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Just heard that Bolivia has cut diplomatic ties with Israel, while Colombia and Chile have recalled their ambassadors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 World opinion and sympathy, lost. Not good at all, particularly for our Israeli friends, who don't want this either. Bibi&cohorts have SO MUCH to answer for, to SO MANY. Shame, shame, shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 31 minutes ago, karaddin said: I would have prioritized attacking the support base of Hamas over directly killing their current members when they're not in the open and able to be killed without major collateral. No, you really, really wouldn't have because their "support base" consists of Iran, Qatar and possibly a few other states. Hamas does not have a traditional military-industrial base; their materiel comes mostly from abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 35 minutes ago, karaddin said: I'd wait for a better option than bombing a refugee camp just to get at him. Okay but what if that Hamas commander was just about to create nuclear bomb and single handily nuke Israel and kill everyone there!?/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 3 minutes ago, Zorral said: World opinion and sympathy, lost. There response has been worse than America’s post-911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingintheNorth4 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Okay but what if that Hamas commander was just about to create nuclear bomb and single handily nuke Israel and kill everyone there!?/s If you're gonna create a hypothetical scenario, at least make one that's realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durckad Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 25 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: But what would do if you determined said evil fuck needs to be killed or captured while using human shields? There really are no good answers. Call me naive, but I would not blow up the human shields. We regularly excoriate cops for using excessive force that results in the deaths of civilians or the US government in its use of unregulated drone warfare to bomb "terrorists" ie civilian weddings and family gatherings that may have contained one "evil fuck" so I really don't see how this is any different. 7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Okay but what if that Hamas commander was just about to create nuclear bomb and single handily nuke Israel and kill everyone there!?/s oh hai jack bauer. what war crimes will you be committing today? Larry of the Lawn, Crixus, AncalagonTheBlack and 4 others 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 50 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: But what would do if you determined said evil fuck needs to be killed or captured while using human shields? There really are no good answers. I'd say no one needs to be killed so immediately that a refugee camp can be blown up to get them. I'd say that if it was bin Laden in that camp. At some point, we need to acknowledge that arial bombardment is not an appropriate response for people. Its attraction to nation states as a low risk option is obvious, but I don't understand how low risk became the same as moral. If a guy is hiding in a refugee camp, go in and get him. If that isn't possible today, wait till it is, since it's not like a ground invasion isn't being planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 6 minutes ago, Altherion said: No, you really, really wouldn't have because their "support base" consists of Iran, Qatar and possibly a few other states. Hamas does not have a traditional military-industrial base; their materiel comes mostly from abroad. I didn't say industrial or economic base, I said support base. I'm talking about the source of recruits at the high end, and just general willingness to aid them or look the other way at the low end, within Gaza. Feel free to check my comments in past threads as I don't want to derail with yet another long post about it, but I'm not pretending it's easy. I just think it's both necessary and the moral thing to do. My point here was simply that in my opinion the life of an evil fuck isn't worth bombing a refugee camp, even if he manages to escape as a result. That's an ethical red line I'm not open to crossing. And yes that's going to open a utilitarianism argument that will ultimately boil down to our personal values, I've just already stated mine and don't want to jump on the hypothetical trolley of "but what if bombing a refugee camp saved 1 million/billion/trillion etc lives". Crixus, Kalbear, Larry of the Lawn and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 12 minutes ago, Altherion said: No, you really, really wouldn't have because their "support base" consists of Iran, Qatar and possibly a few other states. Hamas does not have a traditional military-industrial base; their materiel comes mostly from abroad. Yeah this may be a job for speacial forces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 2 minutes ago, Durckad said: oh hai jack bauer. what war crimes will you be committing today? Notice the /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 1 minute ago, fionwe1987 said: At some point, we need to acknowledge that arial bombardment is not an appropriate response for people. Its attraction to nation states as a low risk option is obvious, but I don't understand how low risk became the same as moral. There is a pretty strong argument for a government preserving the lives of its soldiers at the cost of its enemy's civilians. It's been debated since such bombardment became a viable military option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Altherion said: There is a pretty strong argument for a government preserving the lives of its soldiers at the cost of its enemy's civilians. It's been debated since such bombardment became a viable military option. And what is this supposedly strong argument? And let's note that "enemy's civilians" is a weird term to describe human shields. Edited November 1, 2023 by fionwe1987 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts