Israel - Hamas war VIII

[Fragile Bird]

14 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I'm gonna need you to unpack what you're saying here immediately. At best it's nonsense, but given some of your other stated views I'm leaning more toward shameless exploitation.

You’re right, it’s the first thing that popped into my head, and it’s really a different story. I should have instead mentioned half a dozen countries in Europe that were once on the map, then disappeared, then reappeared then disappeared then reappeared, not always with the same borders, but back again anyway.

If I bought Craving Peaches’ argument, there would be no Poland today because the Russians, Prussians and Austrians would have stood up in Paris in 1919 and said “our people have lived on those lands for generations, you have no right to recreate a state of Poland”. And other countries as well. 

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

there would be no Poland today because the Russians, Prussians and Austrians would have stood up in Paris in 1919 and said “our people have lived on those lands for generations, you have no right to recreate a state of Poland”.

Poles were the majority in their lands, so this argument doesn't work, unless you restrict it to specific parts of Prussia (which weren't a 'core' part of the Kingdom of Poland anyway).

Edited November 4, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[GrimTuesday]

Europeans and Americans are so desperate to absolve themselves of their historic antisemitism that they project it onto the middle east. For example, The Ottoman Empire actively attempted to rescue Sephardic Jews from the Spanish Inquisition and granted them the right to settle in the empire. It got to the point that the Greeks started resenting the status that was given to the Jews within the empire because of the informal pecking order that they had seen themselves as being at the top of. Which of course lead to pogroms in the European part of the empire.

The fact of the matter is that while certainly things weren't all sunshine, buttercups, and rainbows, prior to the colonization of the middle east by Europeans powers, the actual historical record shows that Muslim lands were seen as a refuge for Jews.

[Zorral]

This solution was a terrific solution for the persecuted European Jews and their families -- those who survived WWII, whether by luck, the camps being liberated just in time, or who had gotten out to somewhere else.  Europe dumped the "problem" on the Arabs.  Who didn't particularly appreciate being the solution.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, GrimTuesday said:

Europeans and Americans are so desperate to absolve themselves of their historic antisemitism that they project it onto the middle east. For example, The Ottoman Empire actively attempted to rescue Sephardic Jews from the Spanish Inquisition and granted them the right to settle in the empire. I

That’s incredibly reductive.

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Europeans and Americans are so desperate to absolve themselves of their historic antisemitism that they project it onto the middle east.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Germany, for example, does a lot to acknowledge anti-Semitism. Portugal gave Sephardic citizenship.

Sephardic Jewish Heritage? You Could be Eligible for Portuguese Citizenship - Portugalist

Edited November 4, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Zorral]

11 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

f I bought Craving Peaches’ argument, there would be no Poland today because the Russians, Prussians and Austrians would have stood up in Paris in 1919 and said “our people have lived on those lands for generations, you have no right to recreate a state of Poland”

Prussia, Russia and Austria divided Poland among them, they ruled it by military and government officials, and gleefully absorbed all the resources, particularly the farming resources, which included KEEPING THE POLES ATTACHED TO THE LAND AS SERFS.  And like the serfs, even those who remained in the towns, as traders and merchants, shoemakers etc. were forbidden to speak of Poland, speak, read or write Polish, sing Polish lullabies, dance traditional Polish dances, cook particular Polish dishes, even use particular implements in the kitchen, because seen as particularly "Polish."  But the people were not removed, so that Prussians would be moved in to farm the land as serfs, who were the largest part of the population.

[Ran]

 

4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Europe dumped the "problem" on the Arabs.  Who didn't particularly appreciate being the solution.

They "dumped" the problem on about 8900 square kilometers of mostly-empty desert and 6000 square kilometers of malarial swamps, arable land, and settlements which was shared almost 50-50 with the Arabs. Against the Arabs getting complete control of the other 98% of the land.

And when the Arabs responded by expelling the Jews from MENA, I think we can say that they "dumped" the problem on Israel, too. Over 50% of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, I read somewhere or other.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Mexal said:

That and 5 Arab armies literally attacked them the day after they declared independence. At end of that, they controlled more land.

You do get even in defensive wars you don’t get to absorb territory of the state(s) that attacked you first right?

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

That doesn't sound like a very fair or proportionate plan to me...

60% of the Jewish portion was the Negev Desert, which was mostly uninhabited and envisioned to absorb Jewish refugees.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

60% of the Jewish portion was the Negev Desert, which was mostly uninhabited and envisioned to absorb Jewish refugees.

Yes, someone else pointed this out to me earlier. I also read that Palestine got the best farmlands.

[Mexal]

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You do get even in defensive wars you don’t get to absorb territory of the state(s) that attacked you first right?

You do realize this happens in almost every war for it to end right? There is always some renegotiation of the starting lines, especially for the losers.

[Fragile Bird]

6 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Prussia, Russia and Austria divided Poland among them, they ruled it by military and government officials, and gleefully absorbed all the resources, particularly the farming resources, which included KEEPING THE POLES ATTACHED TO THE LAND AS SERFS.  And like the serfs, even those who remained in the towns, as traders and merchants, shoemakers etc. were forbidden to speak of Poland, speak, read or write Polish, sing Polish lullabies, dance traditional Polish dances, cook particular Polish dishes, even use particular implements in the kitchen, because seen as particularly "Polish."  But the people were not removed, so that Prussians would be moved in to farm the land as serfs, who were the largest part of the population.

Actually, the Prussians moved colonists onto the lands. And in an earlier thread when I said that the huge increase in the population in Gaza did not match the definition of genocide that I was aware of (like the Turkey and the Armenians) everybody jumped on me and said Israel was practicing secret genocide in Gaza, because there are different kinds of genocide. What was practiced in the partition actually was cultural genocide, was it not, with the aim to obliterate anything Polish in those lands. Thousands of Poles immigrated, many to France, many to North America. Another generation or two and the Prussians, Russians and Austrians, had WWI not happened, might very well have been successful. I point out to you that Hitler made propaganda films showing the mistreatment of those ethnic Germans who had settled in western Poland at the hands of Poles as a way to justify the invasion of Poland.

[TrueMetis]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

They "dumped" the problem on about 8900 square kilometers of mostly-empty desert and 6000 square kilometers of malarial swamps, arable land, and settlements which was shared almost 50-50 with the Arabs. Against the Arabs getting complete control of the other 98% of the land.

And when the Arabs responded by expelling the Jews from MENA, I think we can say that they "dumped" the problem on Israel, too. Over 50% of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, I read somewhere or other.

Speaking of reductive, pretending that you can reduce the middle east to "the Arabs" as a cohesive group is pretty reductive. Guess we could have made the Netherlands the Jewish homeland because "the Europeans" get control of the rest of Europe.

 

Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

60% of the Jewish portion was the Negev Desert, which was mostly uninhabited and envisioned to absorb Jewish refugees.

Ah the old colonist standby "they're not using the land *right*." Never gets old does it.

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 minutes ago, Mexal said:

You do realize this happens in almost every war for it to end right? T

Yes that’s illegal and generally immoral.

[Ran]

7 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Speaking of reductive, pretending that you can reduce the middle east to "the Arabs" as a cohesive group is pretty reductive. Guess we could have made the Netherlands the Jewish homeland because "the Europeans" get control of the rest of Europe.

I'm not sure of the logic, but sure, there were more than just Arabs (Berbers, for example)... but, I mean, like in 1950 about 90% of MENA were people of Arab descent and Arab-descended people ran of the governments. They formed the Arab League, even.

As to legality and immorality, why are we relitigating the 1948 partition that the Arab nations rejected? They gained territory that was marked for Israel and lost other territory that was marked for Palestine.

The 1967 UN resolution is much more salient to the situation today.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Ran

[Varysblackfyre321]

So Biden since Israel started escalating its war crimes with his tactic approval is now at its lowest point since last summer. Great. Wonderful. really looking forward to losing American democracy over his unwillingness to tell israel to not bomb refugee camps and ambulances.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So Biden since Israel started escalating its war crimes with his tactic approval is now at its lowest point since last summer. Great. Wonderful. really looking forward to losing American democracy over his unwillingness to tell israel to not bomb refugee camps and ambulances.

Can we take this shit to the US politics thread?  

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, Larry of the Lawn said:

Can we take this shit to the US politics thread?  

Sure it works there too.

[Mexal]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So Biden since Israel started escalating its war crimes with his tactic approval is now at its lowest point since last summer. Great. Wonderful. really looking forward to losing American democracy over his unwillingness to tell israel to not bomb refugee camps and ambulances.

He did tell them. They ignored him. The only thing young people in the US will accept is a free Palestine, from the river to the sea. Biden was fucked no matter what since his approval rate is driven mostly by those young people.