Israel - Hamas War X

[Crixus]

4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

This just seems naive and completely disregards generations of anti-israeli hatred, indoctrination and built up antisemitism. 
 

All the poster above did was say Muslims are human beings, and your reply seems weirdly disconnected from that statement. Odd. 

What would you say about corresponding generations of built-up Islamophobia demonising all Muslims as fanatics, extremists and terrorists - not just post 9/11 either, but something that has been around for centuries? Is that equally reprehensible, or somehow 'justified'? 

Also, if you're saying Muslims are fanatics and therefore cannot co-exist with other religions, then, following that logic, should we extrapolate the vile, fanatical behaviour of settlers in the West Bank onto the entire community, and claim it would be impossible for any Jewish person to coexist with a Muslim one? 

This is amazingly reductive bs. Shocking /s

[Rippounet]

52 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Looking at this realisticly… do you believe a majority Muslim Arab State in Palestine would respect the right of Jews to emigrate to that new State?  That the Muslim Arab majority State would respect the religious practices of religious minorities in the newly created State?

This is hypothetical of course, because it's not going to happen. But a modern secular state has means to ensure the rights of minorities are respected. Scary means, in this day and age, if you're willing to use technology to its fullest extent.
Also, we know education does have near-infinite potential. I'm looking at you, Germany, but there are less... rosy examples...
And if you really want to make sure that the rights of a given minority are always respected, you can enshrine in a constitution the fact that the protection of individual rights will be the responsibility of the minority. By that I mean that you ensure that the judiciary, the law enforcement and surveillance agencies, as well as the military and the intelligence agencies, are all controled by that minority, in perpetuity.
Oh, I'm not saying this would be great - it's a different form of dystopia, and would certainly create its own sets of problems. I'm not even sure I believe in that kind of solution and want to advocate it.

What I'm pointing out here, is that if you want to boil down the conflict to just a few variables, then you will always find an answer to these specific variables - that will sound far-fetched or ridiculous.
Reality is more complex, and the Middle-East is a powder keg for a multitude of reasons that go far beyond Israel and anti-semitism - it would no doubt be a powder keg even without a Jewish ethno-state in its middle. Which is why, in the final analysis, I don't believe in a "magic plan" that can be formulated and defended today or tomorrow. It's more about taking cautious steps in the "right" direction, one at a time, while always staying aware that other factors can turn everything into a shitstorm real fast (the very opposite of what Netanyahu has done, basically).

For instance, regardless of whether one wants to defend a one-state or a two-state solution, climate change is going to mess up the region real bad, and the last few months of violence may be a mere prelude to what's coming.
Realistically, if we take into account the broader context, Netanyahu may have done irreparable damage already, by that I mean that the next three to five decades are likely to broadly look like the last few months.
And after that, on the current trajectory, the whole thing will be dystopian one way or the other.
 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Crixus said:

All the poster above did was say Muslims are human beings, and your reply seems weirdly disconnected from that statement. Odd. 

What would you say about corresponding generations of built-up Islamophobia demonising all Muslims as fanatics, extremists and terrorists - not just post 9/11 either, but something that has been around for centuries? Is that equally reprehensible, or somehow 'justified'? 

Also, if you're saying Muslims are fanatics and therefore cannot co-exist with other religions, then, following that logic, should we extrapolate the vile, fanatical behaviour of settlers in the West Bank onto the entire community, and claim it would be impossible for any Jewish person to coexist with a Muslim one? 

This is amazingly reductive bs. Shocking /s

No, I'm saying there is large scale hatred of Israel, much of it fuelled by anti semitism within the palestinian community. Do you think that isn't true?

[Rippounet]

7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

No, I'm saying there is large scale hatred of Israel, much of it fuelled by anti semitism within the palestinian community. Do you think that isn't true?

Man, you make me think of Desproges so much, har har...

Pierre Desproges is widely considered one of the greatest French humorists to have existed, and one reason for that is that he could take the most sensitive subject and turn it into a laughing matter.
Like anti-semitism.

Warning, this comes from an era where French humorists deliberately mocked political correctness to ridicule racism (1986):
 

Quote

 

I'm told that some Jews have slipped into the room? You can stay.

Nevertheless, I can't shake the idea that during the last world war, many Jews had a downright hostile attitude toward the Nazi regime.

It's true that the Germans, on their part, did not hide a certain antipathy toward the Jews, but still, that wasn't a reason to exacerbate this antipathy by wearing a star on one's jacket... to show that you're not just anybody... that you're the chosen people... and why would I go check in at the Vélodrome d'Hiver? And what's with these train cars without seats?... and I'll go to the showers if I want to... What arrogance! Of course, don't make me say what I haven't said; I have nothing against these people... quite the opposite. You know, I'm proud to be a citizen of this great country... France... where Jews are still running... I'm wary of rumors, you know, when I hear that if the Jews went to Auschwitz in such large numbers it's because it was free, I scoff, ah!

And be careful, there's Jew and Jew, you know? Yes, there are two kinds of Jews... There's the assimilated Jew and the Jewish Jew. It's not at all the same thing. The assimilated Jew, if you will, is... is just anything, really. He's the kind of guy who watches the Holocaust with his feet on the table, eating non-kosher pork... he can't even distinguish the Berlin Wall from the Western Wall... oh no, when he sees a wall, he plays squash, that's it... these people are the shame of synagogues... and on top of that, they won't even have the chance to be recognized by the Nazis in the next... The Jewish Jew, on the other hand, is completely different. The Jewish Jew feels, how should I say it, he feels more Jewish than a furrier, you see?

He hesitates at the idea of mingling with the non-chosen people, outside the opening hours of his store, of course! From a young age, he seeks the company of other Jews... and it's not always easy. It's true, in the past, Jews still had hanging earlobes, hooked fingers and noses, and a turtleneck penis, right? But now, since the wearing of the star has fallen out of use, for some reason, it's not easy to recognize at first glance a little Jewish child from a little anti-Semitic child... You understand now, these people, the Jews, they all get their noses shaved down and their names shortened, so you don't recognize them anymore! But it's true, look... Jean-Marie Le Penovistein looks like a Breton... and... did you know that all practitioners of plastic surgery are Jewish? All doctors are Jewish. Otherwise, you don't get the diploma... all pharmacists are Jewish... all the archbishops of Paris are Jewish... everyone is Jewish!

 

 

[Daeron the Daring]

28 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How are Christian and Jewish Minorities doing in Egypt?  Jordan? Syria? Saudi Arabia? Yemen?

So when I mention that there are a few muslim-majority countries that get along relatively well with their christian minority, these countries come to mind for you as the greatest examples for that? Am I supposed to believe you're answering in good faith then?

Also, let me remind you that the same region endured less religious hostility before the appearance of violent colonial resettlement. Not that it's anybody's fault right now (and I certainly don't meant to shift any sort of blame on the current population/governance of Israel), don't get me wrong, but if you were to dive into it, you'd find out that islam was much more tolerant of other religions historically than the ones it encountered (mainly referring to abrahamic ones) but also that it didn't have religious hostility as it's main principle througout most of its history, unlike today it (mostly) is.

The idea that fundamendalists, zealots, crusaders, and terrorists are the 'real' representation of a certain religion are bigoted in nature, and such viewpoints are mostly targeting judaism and islam these days.

There are secular (and some non-secular) muslim countries with and without significant religious minorities and relatively low religious hostility. They exist, and even if they didn't, it wouldn't mean nothing similar ever could. 

It's more worrying to me if people think they can't live together because of religion.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Because muslims are human beings as well, hence why they are capable of it like anybody else? And because there are more than enough countries like that to make that argument?

What muslim majority countries are there out there that do this? Serious question. The only one I can think of that might apply is turkiye, and that's stretching things.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And because palestinians, like every other nation/ethnicity, are not a monolith that think all the same, and because such a soultion wouldn't dismantle the economic dominance of a would-be supposed jewish minority?

They're not a monolith but they do as a vast majority support a religiously run country.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

This just seems naive and completely disregards generations of anti-israeli hatred, indoctrination and built up antisemitism. 
 

It's not naive. It's intentionally ignoring reality. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

20 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So when I mention that there are a few muslim-majority countries that get along relatively well with their christian minority, these countries come to mind for you as the greatest examples for that? Am I supposed to believe you're answering in good faith then?

Also, let me remind you that the same region endured less religious hostility before the appearance of violent colonial resettlement. Not that it's anybody's fault right now (and I certainly don't meant to shift any sort of blame on the current population/governance of Israel), don't get me wrong, but if you were to dive into it, you'd find out that islam was much more tolerant of other religions historically than the ones it encountered (mainly referring to abrahamic ones) but also that it didn't have religious hostility as it's main principle througout most of its history, unlike today it (mostly) is.

The idea that fundamendalists, zealots, crusaders, and terrorists are the 'real' representation of a certain religion are bigoted in nature, and such viewpoints are mostly targeting judaism and islam these days.

There are secular (and some non-secular) muslim countries with and without significant religious minorities and relatively low religious hostility. They exist, and even if they didn't, it wouldn't mean nothing similar ever could. 

It's more worrying to me if people think they can't live together because of religion.

I’m asking you to look at this realistically.  And the other Arab-Muslim majority nations in that area aren’t treating their religious minorities terribly well.  As such, based upon those examples, I’m skeptical of a similar population behaving differently.

That’s just how humans work.  I wish people would hold hands and learn to love all of us for our differences.  But today isn’t that day.  

The two state plan is, as I said before, the least bad and most pragmatic option in my opinion.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

26 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

you'd find out that islam was much more tolerant of other religions historically

Key word. Was. Stop citing shit from centuries ago and deal with the realities of right now. 

[IheartIheartTesla]

Since the original question (for some reason) was about Christians and Jews, I'd suggest that the former are relatively free to practice their religion in Lebanon, and indeed are part of the government to a large extent. So to answer part of the hypothetical, it is possible in the abstract for Muslim Arab majority countries to include secular elements in their government

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Since the original question (for some reason) was about Christians and Jews, I'd suggest that the former are relatively free to practice their religion in Lebanon, and indeed are part of the government to a large extent. So to answer part of the hypothetical, it is possible in the abstract for Muslim Arab majority countries to include secular elements in their government

Other than Lebanon, hardly the example of a calm well governed Nation-State, where are Jews welcomed in majority Muslim-Arab nations?

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Since the original question (for some reason) was about Christians and Jews, I'd suggest that the former are relatively free to practice their religion in Lebanon, and indeed are part of the government to a large extent. So to answer part of the hypothetical, it is possible in the abstract for Muslim Arab majority countries to include secular elements in their government

I did see this:
The Persecution of Christians in Lebanon
 

Quote

Christians in Lebanon face an existential crisis, as their country increasingly has become controlled by Hezbollah terrorists who answer to Iran, prompting a mass exodus. Over the years, Lebanese Christians have faced multiple attacks, now they also face a new threat in the form of a rapidly declining proportion in relation to the Islamic element in the country.

Though just looking at the demographic change since 2010 it looked like back then Muslims were only a very slight majority in the country but that has changed. 

[Darzin]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How are Christian and Jewish Minorities doing in Egypt?  Jordan? Syria? Saudi Arabia? Yemen?

In Syria minorities including Christians are doing great in terms of equal treatment. But that's not really relevant as the same doesn't apply to Jews and Syria is a dictatorship under minority rule where the minorities are favored. 

[IheartIheartTesla]

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Other than Lebanon, hardly the example of a calm well governed Nation-State, where are Jews welcomed in majority Muslim-Arab nations?

Well, thats a different question, and indeed the answer is close to none in no small part because Jewish-Arab relations have been poisoned through aeons of conflict. I am pushing back against the notion that there is something in the religious/ethnic make up of a region that prevents certain things from happening at all, ever.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Well, thats a different question, and indeed the answer is close to none in no small part because Jewish-Arab relations have been poisoned through aeons of conflict. I am pushing back against the notion that there is something in the religious/ethnic make up of a region that prevents certain things from happening at all, ever.  

Do you believe Jews would be treated fairly by a majority Arab-Muslim nationstate in “Palestine”?  That open emigration would continue to be allowed and that Jews would be allowed to live unmolested in such a nationstate?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

 I am pushing back against the notion that there is something in the religious/ethnic make up of a region that prevents certain things from happening at all, ever.  

Ethnic, no. This conflict is a long running series of essentially ethnic cousins not getting along. That can be fixed, however... 

Religious, absolutely. Idk how people can deny religion is the problem here. 

[Darryk]

Israel and Palestine becoming one state is no more realistic than Pakistan and India becoming one state.

Gandhi wanted one state shared between Muslims and Hindus but they ignored him and founded two states. Then most of the Muslims in India got kicked out and most of the Hindus in Pakistan got kicked out. It was magnitudes more violent and horrific than what happened during the Israel Palestine split.

Needless to say, both countries still co-exist even though they hate each other. That shows a two-state solution can work even the two states hate each other. The problem is the Palestinians don't have a state yet so they have no reason to stop fighting. If they had their state they'd be invested in running a country and thus less incentive to go to war.

[IheartIheartTesla]

7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Do you believe Jews would be treated fairly by a majority Arab-Muslim nationstate in “Palestine”?  That open emigration would continue to be allowed and that Jews would be allowed to live unmolested in such a nationstate?

No, I dont believe that, but I was answering a different question, O' Socrates.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

No, I dont believe that, but I was answering a different question, O' Socrates.

[Kalbear]

This also ignores one of the major goals of Israel as a concept - that it is a country where jews have the power to make their choices and are not just a part of the populace. That again gets into the idea of having either a democratic state or a Jewish one, but that identity is not something to just throw away because it is less convenient.

It also ignores that right now Israel has the power. So proposing solutions that will wipe that out are obvious nonstarters.