Heartofice Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 7 minutes ago, Spockydog said: I do not accept that we cannot afford to try and save life on earth. We should be aware that nothing Starmer proposed previously would make any sort of dent in global emissions and it's main outcome would simply be to increase energy costs. So lets not turn this into a 'saving the planet or not' decision. 8 minutes ago, Spockydog said: We live in a world where the entire planet can be put into mountains of unimaginable debt to save a bunch of fucking bankers. Agree, but then the answer to that is also not to continue building up huge levels of debt to pay for pet projects that won't pay that money back. Those promises were made during a crazy period of incredibly low interest rates. We don't live in that world any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 I too have been fiscally responsible by not committing to spending money on roof repairs I would have to borrow at high interest rates to afford. I'm sure nothing about that decision will mean that I wind up spending more money at even higher interest rates in future. Spockydog and kissdbyfire 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, Heartofice said: Agree, but then the answer to that is also not to continue building up huge levels of debt to pay for pet projects that won't pay that money back. Rwanda is supposed to be lovely this time of year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 2 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Rwanda is supposed to be lovely this time of year... Justifying expensive badly thought out projects by naming other expensive badly thought out projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 One thing, the Green(ish) Economy is an investment, absolutely necessary. The other thing is a silly partisan vanity project, which is also cruel on top of that, this Rwanda deal. We're not even talking about taxation policies. The Tories have managed to run a lot of things in the UK into the ground over the two decades they were in power. Most prominently the NHS. There's also the minor issue of the 26 councils facing bankruptcy risks. So I kinda get why Starmer is rather cautious about committing funds as so many things need fixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 10 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: One thing, the Green(ish) Economy is an investment, absolutely necessary. Broad statement, not clear it’s actually true for any of the projects planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 2 hours ago, mormont said: I too have been fiscally responsible by not committing to spending money on roof repairs I would have to borrow at high interest rates to afford. I'm sure nothing about that decision will mean that I wind up spending more money at even higher interest rates in future. The question is, could you afford to take out those loans? I need to get old flaking paint stripped from my roughcastign, cracks rendered over, and the whole thing repainted. But as I’m paying off a loan taken out to completely re-do the extension flat roof and ceiling, I can’t yet. Even though it really needs doing and potentially not doing it could lead to more expensive works in the future. To make the analogy more akin to government, maybe I’m hesitant to commit to a new loan because my wife is in charge of finances at the moment and gave all our money to cowboys who fucked uo buikding works, and is taking out loans to have the local cats hunted down and shot. So in 6 months, I may have even more loans to pay off. Edited February 9 by Derfel Cadarn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said: The question is, could you afford to take out those loans? [snip] Yes, but - and I don't want to shock you, hope you're sitting down for this bit - Margaret Thatcher lied to you. Countries' budgets are not like household budgets, the analogy she coined back in the day. Countries can pretty much always borrow more money: it just costs more. There isn't really a ceiling, as there is for a household. And if there was, the UK certainly has enough elbow room to borrow £28bn now to avoid catastrophically higher costs later. Spockydog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 20 minutes ago, mormont said: the UK certainly has enough elbow room to borrow £28bn now to avoid catastrophically higher costs later Massive assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 It's not exactly that Thatcher lied, what she did was worse than that. What she participated in is the commodification of money, i.e. taking the power of monetary creation (and thus, monetary sovereignty) away from States (and thus, democratically overseen institutions) to place it in the hands of private parties whose main goal was not just profit, but rent. In other words, turning the collective institutions of nation-States into a source of rent for the global upper-class. I don't know how well she knew what she was doing, but some people had to: Adam Smith described the mechanism in some of the last pages of his Wealth of Nations (page 923 of my edition). The Anti-Targ, Crixus and Spockydog 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Really loved Boris Johnson shredding Tucker Carlson over his Putin interview stunt. https://thehill.com/policy/international/4459283-boris-johnson-calls-tucker-carlson-a-traitor-for-putin-interview/ He straight out named Tucker as the traitor he is. Glad to see others around the World witness and understand the depraved behavior of the American conservatives that we suffer. kissdbyfire and Lord of Oop North 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 5 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said: Really loved Boris Johnson shredding Tucker Carlson over his Putin interview stunt. https://thehill.com/policy/international/4459283-boris-johnson-calls-tucker-carlson-a-traitor-for-putin-interview/ He straight out named Tucker as the traitor he is. Glad to see others around the World witness and understand the depraved behavior of the American conservatives that we suffer. Takes one to know one. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/16/carole-cadwalladr-boris-johnson-lebedevs-prime-ministers-defining-scandal Which Tyler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Takes one to know one. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/16/carole-cadwalladr-boris-johnson-lebedevs-prime-ministers-defining-scandal Im not condoning Boris' career, im merely reveling in seeing any other voices join the chorus of condemning the Putin worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 4 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said: Im not condoning Boris' career, im merely reveling in seeing any other voices join the chorus of condemning the Putin worship. Boris has deep ties to Russian oligarchs, and Ukraine to him is little more than a photo op. He could just as easily defend Putin and condemn Ukraine if he thought it was in his best interest b/c that is the only thing Boris cares about. Crixus and mormont 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Boris has deep ties to Russian oligarchs, and Ukraine to him is little more than a photo op. He could just as easily defend Putin and condemn Ukraine if he thought it was in his best interest b/c that is the only thing Boris cares about. Yes he's dogshit.... And I still enjoy him throwing some of that poo on Tucker the traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 11 hours ago, Heartofice said: Massive assumption. It represents about 1% of current public debt. Jeremy Hunt spent £11bn on tax cuts in November and is looking at doing the same again in March. Yes, we have the room to spend this money. kissdbyfire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 5 minutes ago, mormont said: It represents about 1% of current public debt. Jeremy Hunt spent £11bn on tax cuts in November and is looking at doing the same again in March. Yes, we have the room to spend this money. The assumptions being that the things Labour were planning to spend that money on would be money well spent and would see a return on that investment. It’s really not clear any of that is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 12 hours ago, mormont said: Yes, but - and I don't want to shock you, hope you're sitting down for this bit - Margaret Thatcher lied to you. Countries' budgets are not like household budgets, the analogy she coined back in the day. Countries can pretty much always borrow more money: it just costs more. There isn't really a ceiling, as there is for a household. And if there was, the UK certainly has enough elbow room to borrow £28bn now to avoid catastrophically higher costs later. There is only one thing wrong with that statement. The UK govt doesn't need to borrow a single pence. Borrowing is a govt choice that is made to uphold interest rates so that passive income can be funneled to the rich from govt accounts, it is not a necessity for the purposes of being able to fund govt activity. Rippounet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncalagonTheBlack Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Labour will struggle in Rochdale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Heartofice said: The assumptions being that the things Labour were planning to spend that money on would be money well spent and would see a return on that investment. It’s really not clear any of that is true. It's not really clear that's what you were saying. But it's not really in doubt that there would be a return on that investment, in environmental and economic terms. One could argue about the scale of that, which will depend on how the investment is managed, I suppose. In any case, this isn't really relevant as Labour aren't dropping the commitment because they suddenly decided it was uncertain of the return. They dropped it for political reasons, so the Tories can't accuse them of huge spending commitments (even though huge spending commitments are exactly what the country desperately needs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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