Israel - Hamas war XIV

[TrueMetis]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This looks like a totally legitimate way of fighting a war and taking prisoners. /s

 

There are literal children in those line ups. Like it's a war crime regardless but holy shit the depravity.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

There are literal children in those line ups. Like it's a war crime regardless but holy shit the depravity.

Yup, I know. 

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

There are literal children in those line ups. Like it's a war crime regardless but holy shit the depravity.

There are two that look 10-13 unless I missed a clip. There's more time spent showing a soldier helping an old man. 
Do you not get why they do this? I'm not saying it's right, but they're terrified of suicide bombers because it's happened so many times. 

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There are two that look 10-13 unless I missed a clip. There's more time spent showing a soldier helping an old man. 
Do you not get why they do this? I'm not saying it's right, but they're terrified of suicide bombers because it's happened so many times. 

I get that, and I think it's a valid and very real fear, I'd feel the same way. But once the prisoners have been stripped, there's no reason to fear suicide vests anymore. So why not allow them to get dressed again, at the very least? To me it looks like it's more than just genuine and justifiable fear, it's about humiliation and teaching them a lesson. And sadly, the lesson most likely to be learned from this is not a positive one, nor one that will make anyone safer in the future. 

[Tywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I get that, and I think it's a valid and very real fear, I'd feel the same way. But once the prisoners have been stripped, there's no reason to fear suicide vests anymore. So why not allow them to get dressed again, at the very least? To me it looks like it's more than just genuine and justifiable fear, it's about humiliation and teaching them a lesson. And sadly, the lesson most likely to be learned from this is not a positive one, nor one that will make anyone safer in the future. 

It wouldn't surprise me if humiliation is the point sometimes. This missing piece of data is if it's before or after they're processed and sadly, the latter always looks ugly. 

[TrueMetis]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I get that, and I think it's a valid and very real fear, I'd feel the same way. But once the prisoners have been stripped, there's no reason to fear suicide vests anymore. So why not allow them to get dressed again, at the very least? To me it looks like it's more than just genuine and justifiable fear, it's about humiliation and teaching them a lesson. And sadly, the lesson most likely to be learned from this is not a positive one, nor one that will make anyone safer in the future. 

Yes, once you've determined they're safe you absolutely return their clothes. This is humiliation and sexual harassment and a literal on camera violation of the Geneva conventions and nothing else.

[House Balstroko]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

21% of Israel is Arab citizens and permanent residents. They do just fine.

But these are the Arab citizens who are happy to see Israel be a pluralistic, multicultural democratic state. This is not what most Palestinians want when they talk about "from the river to the sea". They do not want a binational state, they do not want a confederated state, they want an Arab state.

And they should get one, or two, within the 1967 bounds. That's fair.

 

This is the point that needs to be hammered across. Palestinians have a right to a state, but only in so far as it encompasses Gaza and the West Bank. Palestinians have no right to try and claim places like Tel Aviv, Haifa and Eilat. 

[fionwe1987]

6 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

This idea that Arabs and Muslims are somehow barbarians who can't live with "civilized people" like Israelis is just bigotry, plain and simple. Antisemitism is rightfully condemned, but Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment is fully accepted and in many cases encouraged.

And the amount of this kind of sentiment on this thread has only grown. Its sickening.

5 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

There are literal children in those line ups. Like it's a war crime regardless but holy shit the depravity.

Whatever Hamas gets replaced with is going to be built atop these horrors and humiliations. And whatever that group does, it will be on the hands of this Israeli government. 

4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

There are two that look 10-13 unless I missed a clip. There's more time spent showing a soldier helping an old man. 
Do you not get why they do this? I'm not saying it's right, but they're terrified of suicide bombers because it's happened so many times. 

Seriously, is this what you believe? Then the Florida laws that allow me to shoot someone on suspicion they may have a gun are alright too?

3 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

This is the point that needs to be hammered across. Palestinians have a right to a state, but only in so far as it encompasses Gaza and the West Bank. Palestinians have no right to try and claim places like Tel Aviv, Haifa and Eilat. 

But right now, the more likely outcome is Israeli settlements in Gaza, and actual Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Can we hear some outrage against those actual actions as opposed to the words of a people that have no chance of enacting them?

[Tywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Whatever Hamas gets replaced with is going to be built atop these horrors and humiliations. And whatever that group does, it will be on the hands of this Israeli government. 

It was built on previous horrors and humiliations, many of which Israel isn't actually the main target to blame. 
 

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Seriously, is this what you believe? Then the Florida laws that allow me to shoot someone on suspicion they may have a gun are alright too?

No. 

[Mudguard]

5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

It wouldn't surprise me if humiliation is the point sometimes. This missing piece of data is if it's before or after they're processed and sadly, the latter always looks ugly. 

They are strip searched when they are first detained.  Given the circumstances, I'm fine with this.  They are then brought naked like this to a filtration center, such as this stadium, where they interrogate them and try and figure out if they are Hamas.  There is zero reason for keeping them naked after the strip search.  They should have returned the clothes before they brought them to the stadium.  This is 100% about humiliation and torture, and is or at least was part of the IDF standard operating procedure and has been something that they have been routinely doing for many years.  

[fionwe1987]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

It was built on previous horrors and humiliations, many of which Israel isn't actually the main target to blame. 
 

But this fresh round of horro and humiliation and destruction is going to trump all that. The scale and recency of these acts, and the fact that this is what half of Gazan's population which is under 18 will grow up with as the main shaping moment of their lives, means that what happens now will shape what's to come. There was nothing inevitable about this. 

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

No. 

Why?

[mormont]

18 hours ago, Darryk said:

@GrimTuesday

If you want a one-state solution, too fucking bad. It ain't happening.

I think this would be news to Netanyahu and his government, who have said in no uncertain terms that a two state solution ain't happening either.

But you're not wrong that they don't envisage a single state solution either, not at this stage. I think they envision a one state plus no state solution, i.e. an Israeli Jewish state existing beside Palestinians living without a state, powerless to resist further Israeli settlement of their land and resources. That's the optimistic scenario. The less optimistic is a one state solution achieved by driving the Palestinians out of their land.

11 hours ago, Ran said:

21% of Israel is Arab citizens and permanent residents. They do just fine.

But these are the Arab citizens who are happy to see Israel be a pluralistic, multicultural democratic state. This is not what most Palestinians want when they talk about "from the river to the sea". They do not want a binational state, they do not want a confederated state, they want an Arab state.

First of all, while it's true that the majority of Israeli Arab citizens say they feel part of the country - up from 48% to 70% since the start of this conflict - it's also true that only 27% of those folks feel optimistic about the future of Israel.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-arab-minority-feels-closer-country-war-poll-finds-2023-11-10/

Over half of Israeli Arabs do not believe they are treated well enough - and over half of Israeli Christians agree.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-attitudes-of-israeli-arabs-005-present

Oh, and this poll is a few years old, but it does suggest that nearly half of Jewish Israelis want to expel that Arab minority.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/

So I'm not sure it's fair to say that Israeli Arabs are 'doing just fine', and if they do want to see Israel as a pluralistic, multicultural state, I don't think they feel that it is, and I think they have reason to believe that it isn't.

 

[House Balstroko]

5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

But right now, the more likely outcome is Israeli settlements in Gaza, and actual Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Can we hear some outrage against those actual actions as opposed to the words of a people that have no chance of enacting them?

I explicitly stated on multiple occasions that the settlements in the West Bank are illegal and need to eventually be dismantled. I was merely pointing out the fact that Israel is an independent country that has the right to exist. Those who actively protest in favour of Palestinians, while failing to condemn those who use hateful rhetoric against Israel need to be called out as well. Palestinians will not get a state until Israel is fully secure. That’s the reality of the situation. 
 

There’s a ton of outrage against Israel’s campaign in Gaza and the settlements in the West Bank. I’m not sure why you would think that this is some kind of grand declaration. 
 

 

[Darryk]

15 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

The colonization narrative is bullshit? Israel is creating settlements in the West Bank right fucking now, what else do you want that to be called but colonization? It didn't just happen 100 years ago it's happening right now.

I'm talking about people who say the founding of Israel was colonisation. You are correct that the current annexation of the West Bank is colonisation, I can't defend that.

[Jace, Extat]

Okay. 

________________________________

 

6 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

Whatever Hamas gets replaced with is going to be built atop these horrors and humiliations. And whatever that group does, it will be on the hands of this Israeli government. 

 

 

What an awful and patronizing way to dilute the agency of the people you're claiming to champion. Because the people of Gaza couldn't possibly learn from war and decide to move as a community, if not a government, towards peace. Couldn't possibly!

It's an ugly fact, but you can beat the violence out of a society. It's been done before. 

Hamas broke the cease-fire, and Israel's return serve is going to break Hamas. If the Palestinians want to keep choosing violence then they will keep getting bombed. It's that simple.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Jace, Extat

[kissdbyfire]

I have serious doubts that bombing people into submission is a very effective strategy to achieve peace and security for all involved. Palestinians and Israelis have been inflicting horrors on one another for decades, and yet here we are today. 
 

Much the opposite, in fact. As long as this type of tactic is the go-to response leaders on both sides employ, people on both sides will continue to die and suffer while their leaders remain safe and continue to foment more hate and violence in those they are supposed to protect. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

If the Palestinians want to keep choosing violence then they will keep getting bombed. It's that simple.

I'm not sure that it is helpful to lump all Palestinians into a category like this, especially for the purpose of saying they chose violence. I don't think the thousands of Palestinian children chose violence. Nor do I really think one can make the argument that the whole adult population of Gaza 'chose' this violence when there has been no election in Gaza since 2006, where less than half the electorate voted for Hamas. Unless one believes that the failure of the average Gazan to overthrow Hamas entitles Israel to bomb them.

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

It's an ugly fact, but you can beat the violence out of a society. It's been done before. 

To the best of my knowledge, there has not been a time when only the application of violence removed violence from another society, unless you count totally destroying said society. There also needs to be rebuilding for the change to stick.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Jace, Extat]

48 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have serious doubts that bombing people into submission is a very effective strategy to achieve peace and security for all involved. Palestinians and Israelis have been inflicting horrors on one another for decades, and yet here we are today. 
 

Much the opposite, in fact. As long as this type of tactic is the go-to response leaders on both sides employ, people on both sides will continue to die and suffer while their leaders remain safe and continue to foment more hate and violence in those they are supposed to protect. 

I pretty much agree outright with this, and it's why I get a little freaked out when I see people explaining away Hamas' actions as inevitable or, God help me, liberatory.

I don't want to watch allies bomb cities. I don't want to watch anybody do that. But if violence is the game then Israel is going to win. It's up to the Palestinians to produce leadership that can start to get a handle on the reactionary parts of the population. Not easy to do, especially when and after massive infrastructure damage and loss of life from war is affecting your people.

But if this doesn't happen then, as you say, the cycle is inevitable and Israel has no choice but to seek the threshold of violence that guarantees the state's security. 

48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure that it is helpful to lump all Palestinians into a category like this, especially for the purpose of saying they chose violence. I don't think the thousands of Palestinian children chose violence. Nor do I really think one can make the argument that the whole adult population of Gaza 'chose' this violence when there has been no election in Gaza since 2006, where less than half the electorate voted for Hamas. Unless one believes that the failure of the average Gazan to overthrow Hamas entitles Israel to bomb them.

 

Well, the question of how much responsibility a particular group of people have for the actions of their rulers or governments, even in a despotic or terroristic system, is an interesting one but not the point of this thread. (The answer is not "none", by the way)

But I think I covered this with my response above. At some point the Palestinian people either produce leadership that leads towards peace, or we do what we've been doing.

As to the children? Dude it's horrible.  Not just that those kids are living through this, but that they'll have to live through the aftermath and have to be the ones who will choose that long illusive peace. That is a horrible draw. But it has happened before and the sooner it happens for the Palestinians the better for all.

 

48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

.

To the best of my knowledge, there has not been a time when only the application of violence removed violence from another society, unless you count totally destroying said society. There also needs to be rebuilding for the change to stick.

Germany and Japan in 1945 up to the present day come to mind.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Jace, Extat

[Tywin et al.]

7 hours ago, Mudguard said:

They are strip searched when they are first detained.  Given the circumstances, I'm fine with this.  They are then brought naked like this to a filtration center, such as this stadium, where they interrogate them and try and figure out if they are Hamas.  There is zero reason for keeping them naked after the strip search.  They should have returned the clothes before they brought them to the stadium.  This is 100% about humiliation and torture, and is or at least was part of the IDF standard operating procedure and has been something that they have been routinely doing for many years.  

I didn't say I agreed with the second part, but it's more common than you might think. 

5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

But this fresh round of horro and humiliation and destruction is going to trump all that. The scale and recency of these acts, and the fact that this is what half of Gazan's population which is under 18 will grow up with as the main shaping moment of their lives, means that what happens now will shape what's to come. There was nothing inevitable about this. 

Idk about that. If you want to keep bringing up kids then also talk about how textbooks in Gaza and the WB encourage kids to kill Jews. The bombings will make it worse, but you cannot ignore the seed that was always planted. 

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Why?

Because they're dumb. Letting civilians shoot each other because they're scared and trigger happy is always a bad idea. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

.

But if this doesn't happen then, as you say, the cycle is inevitable and Israel has no choice but to seek the threshold of violence that guarantees the state's security.

Germany and Japan in 1945 up to the present day come to mind.

This is where the disagreement lies.  What Israel's doing now is not guaranteeing its security, it's guaranteeing a new generation of radicalized people who are going to be looking for violent solutions.

Japan and Germany weren't under threat of having their lands taken and being driven out of there.  That's not the situation in Gaza or the West Bank.