Israel - Hamas war XIV

[fionwe1987]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Except Hamas isn't just saying it, they committed the worst terrorist attack Israel ever experienced and then said their goal is to do the same thing over and over again. Until they destroy Israel and kill almost everyone in it. And you would want your government to be chill about such a threat? 

Chill? No. Go on a murderous rampage that kills tens of thousands of civilians, in an action that does nothing but reinforce that threat? Definitely not. 

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It doesn't. Who has ever argued that here? All I've said is doing nothing was never an option either. 

You've argued that and are arguing that now. You continue to insist it is either this or doing nothing, which is utter bullshit. 

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Fuck that. Hamas would destroyed every city they could preemptively, because it's exactly what they've said they'd do. Listen to people when they tell you shit like this. 

Yes, and listen to them from all corners, and definitely pay attention when they actually act. 

No one here is saying "let Hamas be". But there's a group of posters here tucking their hands in their pockets, widening their eyes and insisting that retaliating against Hamas is only possible in this awful, indiscriminate fashion, and that the other alternative is to do nothing, or chill.

Fuck that noise. 

[TrueMetis]

Should it be noted that Hamas official charter states that Palestine's border would be those that existed in 1967 and does not call for the destruction of Israel? Now obviously we don't just take them at their official word, and include the fact it used to as well as statements from their officials in looking at what they really want. I'm just curious (rhetorically) why it's "listen to people when they tell you shit like this" but only in one direction. (Again, rhetorically I know perfectly well why this shit only goes in one direction for some people)

[Jace, Extat]

What would you have them do? It is a war. 

Hamas is responsible for starting the war, for using aid money to build infrastructure and weapons of terror and abusing their own people. Hamas has to go, just like the Nazis had to go. 

Your repeated assertions that there will be nothing but more terror in the future is speculative. There is terror and war now.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Jace, Extat

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Should it be noted that Hamas official charter states that Palestine's border would be those that existed in 1967 and does not call for the destruction of Israel? 

What is Hamas and what does it want?

Hamas is a Palestinian group which has run Gaza since 2007.

The name is an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya, which means Islamic Resistance Movement.

The group wants to destroy Israel and replace it with an Islamic state.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67039975

[fionwe1987]

12 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

What would you have them do? It is a war. 

Fascinating. So war means do whatever the fuck you want? 

12 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Hamas is responsible for starting the war, for using aid money to build infrastructure and weapons of terror and abusing their own people. Hamas has to go, just like the Nazis had to go. 

No one is denying Hamas started this war. That doesn't give Israel licence to indiscrimately kill civilians. 

12 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Your repeated assertions that there will be nothing but more terror in the future is speculative. There is terror and war now.

There is death here and now. That this wanton destruction won't lead to stability and peace may be speculative, but that this destruction and death is illegal and immoral is not. 

[Ran]

2 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Should it be noted that Hamas official charter states that Palestine's border would be those that existed in 1967 and does not call for the destruction of Israel?

The official charter is a PR exercise. The original charter has not been repudiated. Even in the new charter, the 1967 boundary is just a stepping stone:

Quote

23. Hamas stresses that transgression against the Palestinian people, usurping their land and banishing them from their homeland cannot be called peace. Any settlements reached on this basis will not lead to peace. Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah.

Hamas's new charter is nakedly a gambit for continued jihad. The full text absolutely rejects everything has gone before, declares Israel entirely and perpetually illegitimate, and so sure, give us the 1967 lands... but we're coming for the rest.

This is why Hamas has to go.

[TrueMetis]

Oh Jesus fucking Christ that's twice people have ignored the literal next sentance of my post. I really don't know why I bother.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Oh Jesus fucking Christ that's twice people have ignored the literal next sentance of my post. I really don't know why I bother.

You said this, as well:

 

3 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

I'm just curious (rhetorically) why it's "listen to people when they tell you shit like this" but only in one direction.

I'm answering that part of it. I'm pointing out that the very charter you cite is clear that 1967 is just a stepping stone for the rest of "Palestine", and in no way actually means Hamas is claiming that the 1967 borders will end their jihad. It's pretty much as explicit as it can be.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Ran

[Relic]

Almost 21,000 dead in Gaza since the IDF began bombing the densely populated region. 262 people per day. At least 60% of those women and children. The rest are "men of age" which means that probably most of them arent Hamas fighters either. It is safe to say that Israel is inefficient in its goal of ridding the world of Hamas, at best. At worst it is flagrantly murdering civilians without any regard for decency, morality, or compassion. 

https://open.substack.com/pub/abuaardvark/p/counting-casualties-in-israels-war?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Edited December 27, 2023 by Relic

[karaddin]

48 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'm answering that part of it. I'm pointing out that the very charter you cite is clear that 1967 is just a stepping stone for the rest of "Palestine", and in no way actually means Hamas is claiming that the 1967 borders will end their jihad. It's pretty much as explicit as it can be.

I thought TrueMetis was suggesting that we take the Israeli settlers that say they want to use Gaza for beach front property as indicative of significant factions within Israel despite the lack of an IDF statement that that is their intent, much like we accept that Hamas are genocidal fucks despite their official position suggesting that they'd recognize the 1967 borders. My interpretation is "we should listen to the behaviour of both sides rather than listening to their press releases", your interpretation is "we should trust the press release of both sides" which doesn't fit well with TM making it clear that Hamas shouldn't be trusted on that front imo.

[Darryk]

12 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

An Empire took land from another Empire and gave it to a third party without the consent of the majority living there. The societal and cultural institution where then reshaped to the newcomers desires rather than integrating into the already existing social order. What would you call that but colonization? Like legitimately, I do want an answer to this before you read the rest of my post.

The people living there included Jews. The reason they weren't a majority is because they got kicked out by the Romans.

Why don't people complain about Pakistan? The British just slapped down an Islamic country where Hindus were living.

[Darryk]

7 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

The problem with this idea that the Israelis have a right to return that supersedes the rights of Palestinians to return is that one side was removed hundreds of years ago, well beyond living memory, and the other side was removed 75 years ago

So I guess if we just wait long enough, it will have been so long since the Palestinians were kicked out that no one will care anymore?

Jews being kicked out of Rome is certainly not beyond living memory for Jews, who for centuries have turned toward Jerusalem when they pray and still say the words "If I forget thee oh Jerusalem, let my right hand fail its need".

Edited December 27, 2023 by Darryk

[Darryk]

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

23 minutes ago, Darryk said:

So I guess if we just wait long enough, it will have been so long since the Palestinians were kicked out that no one will care anymore?

Jews being kicked out of Rome is certainly not beyond living memory for Jews, who for centuries have turned toward Jerusalem when they pray and still say the words "If I forget thee oh Jerusalem, let my right hand fail its need".

That's not what "living memory" means.  

 

[fionwe1987]

46 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Why don't people complain about Pakistan? The British just slapped down an Islamic country where Hindus were living.

Are you under the impression we don't? I brought this up in a previous thread, showing how the British seeded and expanded religious divisions for their own gain, then when they decided the whole colony business was too expensive, they left behind death, hatred and division. Which is why colonialism and post-colonial analysis is critical to understanding what's happening here in this conflict, as well. 

[Darryk]

43 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

That's not what "living memory" means.  

 

So what does it mean? How long do people have to live before it's no longer in "living memory". 

Cause as I said, whatever amount of time you give, I guess if just wait long enough the so-called "colonisation" will be beyond "living memory" and it'll be fine. We'd best hold onto that land then!

Oh wait, does "living memory" just mean the point where the people it didn't happen to (ie. non-jews) no longer care? Cause I'm pretty sure they didn't care at any point.

[TrueMetis]

23 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Are you under the impression we don't? I brought this up in a previous thread, showing how the British seeded and expanded religious divisions for their own gain, then when they decided the whole colony business was too expensive, they left behind death, hatred and division. Which is why colonialism and post-colonial analysis is critical to understanding what's happening here in this conflict, as well. 

China and France are ethnostates and no one has any complaints about that, just as no one has any complaints about the partitioning of India and Pakistan (and the Muslims there were brought by the British apparently, gonna be news to the Muslim people living there who are pretty certain they can trace their roots a lot farther back than that) next up we're gonna learn that the decolonization of Africa went great actually. Everybody got what they wanted and there certain aren't issues caused by it impacting the world today.

Anyway @karaddin thank you, yeah that's pretty much it.

[Darryk]

2 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

and the Muslims there were brought by the British apparently, gonna be news to the Muslim people living there who are pretty certain they can trace their roots a lot farther back than that

There were Jews emigrating to Israel long before the British got involved (the zionist movement).

In fact the British blocked Jewish immigration. Thankfully the Ottomans didn't care much and allowed it to happen, and most of the land the Jews settled were purchased from warlords.

How do people think Muslims / Arabs ended up in control of all these countries? They're one of the most successful colonisers in history. But I guess it doesn't matter because it's "beyond living memoery". Good to know.

[fionwe1987]

29 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

(and the Muslims there were brought by the British apparently, gonna be news to the Muslim people living there who are pretty certain they can trace their roots a lot farther back than that) 

Thanks for bringing this up. I missed addressing this.

What the Brits did is take broadly integrated communities and divided them based on religious lines. In the subcontinent, they literally had the Constituent Assembly split into Muslim majority and Hindu majority districts, for decades, to prevent political consolidation in opposition to the Raj.

Then, when the whole colonial project was deemed too expensive to continue, they brought in a civil servant who had never been to India, never been to the lands he was going to divide, and gave him 5 fucking weeks to determine the borders.

Similarly clueless dumbfuck civil servants we're involved in the post-Mandate border decisions.

And divide and rule policies, directed at Muslims and Jews, have been extensively documented during British rule of Palestine, as well.

The seeds for the "impracticality" of a One State solution were laid under the Brits. And acknowledging those harms and tactics and seeking restitution is the only way any actual solution will end up taking. 

[karaddin]

You really don't need to be so ridiculous in your snark about "living memory", it's actually got quite a clear and purposeful meaning: people that lived through it and remember it are still alive to remember it.

The Holocaust is in living memory. The Siege of Masada (I think that's what it's generally called, but if it's also referred to along the names of "massacre" instead of siege I'm happy to go with that - it would certainly be accurate) is not in living memory because anyone alive at the time has been dead for approximately 1900 years. Yes it's still remembered, and it's relevant but no one still left lived through it.

I think there's generally a second level of temporal proximity that people use which is whether people still alive knew family members that lived through it before they died. So for example there are people alive in the US who got to know their grandparents whom had been slaves. 

All of which is separate from the actual point other people were making.