Israel - Hamas war XIV

[Jace, Extat]

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Fascinating. So war means do whatever the fuck you want? 

 

War means destroying the enemy's capacity to coordinate and maintain combatants in the field. That is what Israel wants to do, and they only wanted it after Hamas attacked first. 

There has been a popular drift of the word "indiscriminate" by many in these threads.

Indiscriminate is what the allies did in WW2. Dropping bombs by the thousands from high altitude and not caring what they hit. These kinds of attacks produced casualties as high as 120,000 or 180,000 in a single day, in Germany and Japan. 

It's just incorrect to lay that charge on Israel in Gaza. 

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

There is death here and now. That this wanton destruction won't lead to stability and peace may be speculative, but that this destruction and death is illegal and immoral is not. 

I'm no legal expert, so I'll leave it to the U.N. to bark up that tree as soon as they're done rescuing a cat that's up a different tree. As for immorality, well. Agree to disagree, I suppose. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

The Holocaust is in living memory.

Is it? Far too many people don't know anything really about it and/or say get over it. They certainly don't know much about what predated it, as these threads have shown. 

Which is why I always have to laugh when an Armenian friend of mine in these conversations throws up his hands and jokingly says that none of us give two shits about what's happened to them, and he's right. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, Darryk said:

So what does it mean? How long do people have to live before it's no longer in "living memory". 

Cause as I said, whatever amount of time you give, I guess if just wait long enough the so-called "colonisation" will be beyond "living memory" and it'll be fine. We'd best hold onto that land then!

Oh wait, does "living memory" just mean the point where the people it didn't happen to (ie. non-jews) no longer care? Cause I'm pretty sure they didn't care at any point.

Most of this has been addressed, but I made the correction about "living memory" because you were misusing it.  Something that happened 2000 years ago is absolutely not within living memory 

If non-jews "didn't care at any point" Israel wouldn't even exist.  

Believe it or not, but I'd guess almost every single person posting here thinks that colonization is bad regardless of who is doing it, and that it's bad when anyone is forced from their home.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Just now, Larry of the Lawn said:

Most of this has been addressed, but I made the correction about "living memory" because you were misusing it.  Something that happened 2000 years ago is absolutely not within living memory 

But things that happened in the few decades before the creation of Israel are also constantly written off. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But things that happened in the few decades before the creation of Israel are also constantly written off. 

Well then maybe Darryk should be talking about that instead of citing something that happened 2000 years ago [as being in living memory]  

Not everything that isn't explicitly brought up is being "written off".  I haven't heard Darryk decrying the shooting of Palestinians in Burlington VT in this newest iteration of the thread.  Is he writing off that islamophobic violence?  Of course not.

Do we each need to post a 400 word intro-disclaimer to each post stating all the horrible things done by every party to this conflict?  

Edited December 27, 2023 by Larry of the Lawn

[Darryk]

It may not be within living memory but it still matters to the people it happened to. A lot.

As does what happened to the Palestinians matter. But the point is the founding of Israel had a bit more meaning to it than just a British colonisation project.

Anyway it was the United Nations that allowed for the founding of Israel. And yes, that means Israel shouldn't be trodding on the land that the UN allotted to the Palestinians.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

If we can base claims to land on the forced ethnic cleansing by conquering and imperial powers to as far back as 1900 years ago, we will need a lot more markers to redraw the national borders of the world map, and I can't even imagine what that would look like. 
 

Edit: Can the Hellenes have Constantinople back? Asking for a friend. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Matrim Fox Cauthon

[Darryk]

7 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

If we can base claims to land on the forced ethnic cleansing by conquering and imperial powers to as far back as 1900 years ago, we will need a lot more markers to redraw the national borders of the world map, and I can't even imagine what that would look like. 
 

Edit: Can the Hellenes have Constantinople back? Asking for a friend. 

Israel is a lot more sacred to Jews than Constantinople is to Hellenes.

And as I keep saying there were Jews there for centuries and them and Arabs didn't want to be under the rule of each other. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Darryk

[Jace, Extat]

2 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Israel is a lot more sacred to Jews than Constantinople is to Hellenes.

 

Not in my HoI4 campaigns it's not! The Rome of the East will rise again!

[Darryk]

Jews have been living as strangers in other people's lands and always treated as alien for centuries. I wouldn't expect British, Germans etc who have always felt at home in their own nation to get it.

For the record I believe the Kurds should have their own nation as well. Especially since they're currently getting the shit bombed out of them by the Turks.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Darryk

[Darryk]

4 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Not in my HoI4 campaigns it's not! The Rome of the East will rise again!

What is Ho14?I've only played Medieval: Total War.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Darryk said:

What is Ho14?I've only played Medieval: Total War.

Hearts of Iron, Paradoxes WWII grand strategy game series.

[karaddin]

You don't need to dismiss that many Jews were displaced from the area over the last couple of millennia to see that there were a bunch of Palestinians displaced from their homes recently. It's an injustice that happened in living memory and what remains of the Palestinian community in Gaza needs liberty and opportunity and they have had neither.

They haven't got it from Hamas, they didn't get it from those that preceded them, and they aren't getting it from Israel either. Now they're being killed at a high rate via bombs etc and a huge amount are displaced from their homes and suffering from deprivation as collateral damage in a war started by terrorists that appropriate their cause as justification and waged by a military that is ok with blowing up human shields to possibly get at a single target.

I don't want Israel to end, I want Israel to stop blowing them up and work towards an actual solution for these people. I do want Hamas to end, and I'm happy for Israel to bring that about - just not with this level of collateral. 

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

17 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Israel is a lot more sacred to Jews than Constantinople is to Hellenes.

I don't see how that is relevant if the argument pertains to how conquest and forced expulsion from 1900 years ago somehow legitimizes modern day land claims. 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Darryk said:

It may not be within living memory but it still matters to the people it happened to. A lot.

As does what happened to the Palestinians matter. But the point is the founding of Israel had a bit more meaning to it than just a British colonisation project.

Anyway it was the United Nations that allowed for the founding of Israel. And yes, that means Israel shouldn't be trodding on the land that the UN allotted to the Palestinians.

It was and that absolutely should be respected. It is funny how that goes though… because the UN’s decision on this issue is taken to be so meaningful (as it should), but then the same UN decided that Western Sahara is an independent and legitimate country and the whole world but two countries agreed. Care to guess which countries did not recognise the UN’s decision? No drumroll necessary: the US and Israel, who both hold that Morocco owns WS. So whatever meaning UN’s decisions have is very much dependent on the interests of very few countries. That’s probably why the UN is such a toothless organisation. except, of course, when it decides in favour of a handful of powerful countries. 

[kissdbyfire]

46 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

If we can base claims to land on the forced ethnic cleansing by conquering and imperial powers to as far back as 1900 years ago, we will need a lot more markers to redraw the national borders of the world map, and I can't even imagine what that would look like. 

Well, shall we start with everyone but the native peoples buggering off of all of the Americas? 

[Zorral]

Gosh it would be nice if people actually knew about the stuff that they are arguing about rather than basing their comments on gaming, which is notoriously not the real stuff, either as actions or history.

The 'river to sea' phrase was also used by the Israeli ruling Likud party as part of their 1977 election manifesto which stated "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." This slogan was repeated by Menachem Begin.

https://jewishcurrents.org/newsletter/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean

Another question, if this must be done by Israel because war, what happens if Israel loses the war?  Think ahead people, along all the lines of possibility!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As many of us have been observing:

Skepticism Grows Over Israel’s Ability to Dismantle Hamas
Israel has vowed time and again to eliminate the group responsible for the brutal Oct. 7 attack, but critics increasingly see that goal as unrealistic or even impossible.

Gift link, free from paywall:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-war-military.html?unlocked_article_code=1.JE0.ky3w.1iTjP6S10mgy&smid=url-share

Quote

 

...  critics both within Israel and outside have questioned whether resolving to destroy such a deeply entrenched organization was ever realistic. One former Israeli national security adviser called the plan “vague.”

“I think that we have reached a moment when the Israeli authorities will have to define more clearly what their final objective is,” President Emmanuel Macron of France said this month. “The total destruction of Hamas? Does anybody think that’s possible? If it’s that, the war will last 10 years.”

Since it first emerged in 1987, Hamas has survived repeated attempts to eliminate its leadership. The organization’s very structure was designed to absorb such contingencies, according to political and military specialists. In addition, Israel’s devastating tactics in the Gaza war threaten to radicalize a broader segment of the population, inspiring new recruits. ....

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Zorral

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, shall we start with everyone but the native peoples buggering off of all of the Americas? 

Maybe, but if 1900 years of history is within the statute of limitations, then it's possible that even native peoples will find themselves reshuffled greatly from any of their land claims from 1492 and onwards. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Well then maybe Darryk should be talking about that instead of citing something that happened 2000 years ago [as being in living memory]  

Yet when I do talk about that it often gets completely dismissed. 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Yet when I do talk about that it often gets completely dismissed. 

Probably because you lump it in with a desire to ethnic cleanse the Palestinians and consider both of those things equivalent.