Would Robert have married Lyanna even if she had already been "used" by Rhaegar?

[Odej]

Let's imagine that it really was a kidnapping, Lyanna spent months being raped, she became pregnant, her son didn't survive, she didn't die, the rebellion won the war and she was rescued. It wasn't her fault, but she was no longer a maiden. Would Robert go through with the commitment?

The obvious answer seems to be yes. After all, the guy fought a war to get her back after the apparent kidnapping and Robert didn't think Rhaegar was playing cyvasse with her.

BUT, Robert was a proud man and above all, a noble man in a society where a lady's maidenhood was an asset. Would his passion for her overcome that? Would he get over knowing the man he hated had taken her before him? In the World of Ice and Fire, Maester Pycelle doubts that Tywin would have married Joanna if she were the remains of another man, in this case Aerys.

I always thought that under normal circumstances Robert and Lyanna's marriage would have been a disaster. If he married her despite the rape I believe this would become the elephant in the room of the relationship and the marriage would disintegrate even faster. But to get to this we return to the initial question, would he marry her?

Edited January 26 by Odej

[astarkchoice]

Yes because hes not tywin  ,if anthing hed put her up on more of a pedestal than before for enduring what she did.

 

Besides it still ties him to his bestest best  friend and it ties the whole rebellion intermarriages together.

[sifth]

Robert seemed like a nice guy and it's clear as day he loved Lyanna. So yea, he would.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Yes because if anything he held her in a perfect hypothetical that Med clearly didn’t agree with. She can’t be “spoiled” if she were taken by “that dirty targ” or whatever he wanted. 
 

he doesn’t good enough job ignoring serious issues as king at every point we see

[frenin]

We know the answer to that.

 

Quote

Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done."

[Lord of Oldstones]

Its what realm wants not newly minted King's will. Lyanna's image will certainly be tarnished unless "we were married" excuse is made. Lord Arryn will ask Robert to forget her. Ned Stark would prefer to take his traumatized sister back North over putting up with Robert and hear jibes on her virtue at court. 

[Aebram]

Seventeen years after the end of his rebellion, when Robert arrived at Winterfell, the first thing he wanted to do was visit Lyanna's crypt.

[frenin]

19 hours ago, Lord of Oldstones said:

Its what realm wants not newly minted King's will. Lyanna's image will certainly be tarnished unless "we were married" excuse is made. Lord Arryn will ask Robert to forget her. Ned Stark would prefer to take his traumatized sister back North over putting up with Robert and hear jibes on her virtue at court. 

Robert himself states his wish.

There is no argument that he'd override whatever argument against the match.

[Landis]

I totally believe that he would have wanted to marry her, but I have never been under any illusions that his “affection” for her was reciprocated in any way. He loves an idea of a woman he has in his head, and her death only allowed him to romanticize this idea to an even greater extent. We know how that has impacted his relationship with Cersei, but had he actually married Lyanna and learned that the version of her and his life with her he had in his head was nothing like reality, I strongly suspect that that would have been far more catastrophic for Lyanna and the Seven Kingdoms during his reign than the effective peace that existed through his marriage to Cersei (despite the violence exerted within that marriage’s confines). 
 

It seems to me that the more interesting question to ask would be: given these circumstances, would Lyanna have married Robert, or would Ned have allowed Robert to marry his sister? I know there’s a lot of people on this forum who disagree with me, but I think a lot of Ned and Robert’s friendship, and Ned’s fond memories of Robert that we see in GoT is only actually allowed to exist in that nostalgic realm because Ned was never ultimately put in the position of having to consent to Robert marrying his sister, he was only ever made to consent to fighting and grieving over her loss. Had she survived, in my opinion that marriage pact would have comprehensively destroyed the friendship between Ned and Robert whether Ned agreed to follow through with it or not, and Lyanna would likely face violence and/or death either way. 
 

I expect we will get a lot more perspective on all of these things once we learn what happened to Alysanne Blackwood and her four daughters with Cregan Stark, however.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I’m not entirely convinced that Ned would have brought Lyanna back to Robert after rescuing her from the Tower of Joy. Maybe he would have sent her into hiding with baby Jon.

[Alester Florent]

6 hours ago, Landis said:

I totally believe that he would have wanted to marry her, but I have never been under any illusions that his “affection” for her was reciprocated in any way.

I don't think Lyanna was ever as into Robert as he was into her, but I always imagined her being reasonably enthusiastic about the marriage until she learned about Bob's premarital affairs. We always have to keep in mind that the Robert we see, the Robert we hear about from Cersei, isn't the Robert before and during the Rebellion. Young Robert was arguably the mightiest warrior of the age, a laughing hero, hugely popular, and the people who knew him best loved him best. With Rhaegar off the market, he was probably the most eligible bachelor in the kingdom*. Why wouldn't Lyanna want that?

The difference is that any image Lyanna had of a perfect Robert was cracked while they were still alive, so she had the chance to go off him, whereas Robert carried his equivalent of Lyanna's to the grave.

I think Robert would have married Lyanna without a second thought had she survived the rebellion. And in a scenario where Lyanna was actually Rhaegar's captive, Robert's following through on the betrothal is the sort of opportunity you'd grab with both hands: Hero Robert, the king!, still wants to marry you, in circumstances where 99% of other lords in Westeros would throw you over, and if he refused you'd struggle to find another husband at all. It'd be a choice between that and at least the prospect of perpetual spinsterhood.

As time wore on and the realities started to bite, I imagine Robert returning to that decision to still marry her with some regret, and thinking maybe he should have put her aside, the grass always being greener, etc. But I also doubt Robert would ever have disintegrated to the extent that he did: a couple of legitimate children who take after him and a wife who isn't actively undermining him at every turn would surely have wrought wonders for his mental health, even if he's less than wholly happy with his situation and Lyanna's past.

*Yes, Jaime. But Robert comes without a terrifying, overbearing father, which has got to count for a lot.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

And take the throne with his wife's newborn baby on his lap? 

[John Suburbs]

On 1/26/2024 at 6:13 PM, Odej said:

Let's imagine that it really was a kidnapping, Lyanna spent months being raped, she became pregnant, her son didn't survive, she didn't die, the rebellion won the war and she was rescued. It wasn't her fault, but she was no longer a maiden. Would Robert go through with the commitment?

The obvious answer seems to be yes. After all, the guy fought a war to get her back after the apparent kidnapping and Robert didn't think Rhaegar was playing cyvasse with her.

BUT, Robert was a proud man and above all, a noble man in a society where a lady's maidenhood was an asset. Would his passion for her overcome that? Would he get over knowing the man he hated had taken her before him? In the World of Ice and Fire, Maester Pycelle doubts that Tywin would have married Joanna if she were the remains of another man, in this case Aerys.

I always thought that under normal circumstances Robert and Lyanna's marriage would have been a disaster. If he married her despite the rape I believe this would become the elephant in the room of the relationship and the marriage would disintegrate even faster. But to get to this we return to the initial question, would he marry her?

Robert might but his realm would have been off to a very rocky start and she would have been a giant albatross around his neck throughout his reign. All anyone would think whenever they saw her in court is her being raped by Rhaegar all those months, and many would have thought it better if she just killed herself afterward, or at least joined the silent sisters or skulked off to some remote castle somewhere up north.

And Lyanna would have begged Robert not to subject her to a lifetime of shame and torment, arguing that if he really loved her, he would let her go.

[SeanF]

In that scenario, yes, I think Robert would marry her.

But what if Jon lived?  Robert would want the boy killed, which would make the wedding impossible.

And, what if it turned out Lyanna went willingly?  He might kill her, too.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

In that scenario, yes, I think Robert would marry her.

But what if Jon lived?  Robert would want the boy killed, which would make the wedding impossible.

And, what if it turned out Lyanna went willingly?  He might kill her, too.

Hear me out - 

Ned: Lyanna if you want your son to live, we have to pretend he's my son and I could leave him to be raised in KL with you. If not, Robert will smash his head with a Warhammer and you will be a silent sister in the best case scenario. You could also end up with a smashed head. Or you could play dead and run away with basically no money and no protection

Lyanna: Hmmmm

I would not even legitimately know which decision she would make -- wolf blood and all -- but I'd imagine she would pick one where Jon lives. Scenario #3 is probably best case scenario with Ned up in WF and Arryn acting as HotK. "She looks after me as a mom, not an aunt" flies when you're the only blood relative within 1000 miles.

[the trees have eyes]

On 1/29/2024 at 3:42 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

And take the throne with his wife's newborn baby on his lap? 

The OP specifically says "Let's imagine...her son didn't survive".

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

55 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The OP specifically says "Let's imagine...her son didn't survive".

Missed that part. Thanks

Still don't think he'd do it.

[SeanF]

23 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Hear me out - 

Ned: Lyanna if you want your son to live, we have to pretend he's my son and I could leave him to be raised in KL with you. If not, Robert will smash his head with a Warhammer and you will be a silent sister in the best case scenario. You could also end up with a smashed head. Or you could play dead and run away with basically no money and no protection

Lyanna: Hmmmm

I would not even legitimately know which decision she would make -- wolf blood and all -- but I'd imagine she would pick one where Jon lives. Scenario #3 is probably best case scenario with Ned up in WF and Arryn acting as HotK. "She looks after me as a mom, not an aunt" flies when you're the only blood relative within 1000 miles.

I think Ned would have given her money, to flee with Jon.  Neither she, nor her baby, would have any future in Westeros.

 

[the trees have eyes]

23 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Missed that part. Thanks

Still don't think he'd do it.

Robert is rash and temperamental and wants to get his way.  I think there's a good chance he would because he wanted to. 

The political considerations are strengthening the alliance between the Stark-Barratheon-Arryn-Tully families that are the bedrock of The Robellion and that Robert returns to fifteen years later with the proposed marriage of Joffrey and Sansa.  He's indebted to the Lannisters who are power-hungry (and ultimately depose him of course) so I think it would have been better for him to have had genuine Stark support for his rule rather than Ned disappearing off to WF for good. 

He would have been guided more by emotion than calculation but I think the latter provides support for his instinctive wish.

Love and marriage would not have changed his nature, though, as Lyanna correctly pointed out to Ned, so it is highly likely they would have become disillusioned with each other and he would have had many mistresses.  But in a world where arranged marriages are the norm rather than love matches it's more likely he and Lyanna would have had several children and found contentment in their own pursuits rather than each other (more like Stannis and Selyse, even Doran and Mellario).  Lyanna =/= Cersei so I don't see it going wrong so spectacularly.

[Alester Florent]

Moreover, were Robert to repudiate Lyanna, he might lose Ned's friendship for good. They have already fallen out over the fate of Rhaegar's children, and they patched things up when they were both grieving over Lyanna. If Lyanna had survived, gone back to KL to meet Bob, and he had broken off the engagement because of her history with Rhaegar, Ned would surely have stormed out of KL and never looked back, not only fatally straining the North/crown alliance (that was , inter alia, important in putting down Balon's rebellion) but Ned wouldn't be minded to accept the position of Hand, nor would he be an obvious candidate. 

We don't know when Ned swore allegiance to Robert as king, but if it was after Lyanna's death, then in a scenario where she survives and Robert turns her down, I don't even think an early manifestation of the northern independence movement is unthinkable. 

So there were very good political reasons for Robert to follow through on the marriage to Lyanna (assuming she and Ned still made herself available for marriage) on top of whatever Robert's personal feelings might have been.