Dating Thread: In Memoriam

[Madame deVenoge]

10 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Are there no shorter operas available?  If I we run with IHT's baseball analogy, you can invite a date to a baseball game even if it isn't their thing, but choosing a doubleheader seem inconsiderate.

I’m not in NYC. I’m in a city where there are four operas per year, and I have a season subscription.

I should clarify to him that I have seen this particular opera three times, so if he wanted to leave after the first or second intermission, I would be totally fine with that. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

28 minutes ago, Madame deVenoge said:

Note that Second Ex was stone cold sober and probably had NO IDEA how threatening it appeared to be waiting for me in my home, uninvited.

Would it have made things better if he was watching sportball in a very well made Elmo costume? 

[Madame deVenoge]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Would it have made things better if he was watching sportball in a very well made Elmo costume? 

No, but stating for the record that he wasn’t drunk and belligerent or intent on violence a la OJ Simpson.

He just had no idea how inappropriate he was, and that this can absolutely happen .

Edited April 15 by Madame deVenoge

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

28 minutes ago, Madame deVenoge said:

No, but stating for the record that he wasn’t drunk and belligerent or intent on violence a la OJ Simpson.

He just had no idea how inappropriate he was, and that this can absolutely happen .

If the Elmo head doesn't fit, you must acquit! 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Wagner is really not my cup of tea.

I am not opposed to opera in general. Puccini, brilliant. Mozart, fine. But Wagner's music is lenghty,  self-indulgent trash, and we are not even talking about his, let's say political beliefs.

[Toth]

Just came across a story of a girl complaining about her ex-boyfriend, where the guy behaved pretty much exactly like that ideal me that I have been fantasizing about, with him being very considerate, having long talks about wants and needs and trying to fulfill her every wish and... yet the story still ended with her dumping him for being awkward and inexperienced in bed and thus not making her feel desired enough. And they were 10 years younger than me. Sigh... I know the story of two strangers on the internet shouldn't concern me, but it still feels like a stab in the belly and makes me think that intimacy is impossible for guys like me...

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Toth said:

Just came across a story of a girl complaining about her ex-boyfriend, where the guy behaved pretty much exactly like that ideal me that I have been fantasizing about, with him being very considerate, having long talks about wants and needs and trying to fulfill her every wish and... yet the story still ended with her dumping him for being awkward and inexperienced in bed and thus not making her feel desired enough. And they were 10 years younger than me. Sigh... I know the story of two strangers on the internet shouldn't concern me, but it still feels like a stab in the belly and makes me think that intimacy is impossible for guys like me...

Okay, so here's the thing - you cannot and should not be considerate to the point of selflessness. Talking about wants and needs is nice, but it's also really exhausting on the talker's side and doesn't end up making you feel particularly wanted; it makes you feel like you're a quest giver, and then are obligated to reward that person after they've completed it. The part about how she didn't feel desired enough I bet rings really weird to you - how could someone who is trying to do whatever they want not feeling desired? But that's not desire; that's devotion. Desire is grabbing that person and kissing them, desire is being selfish and wanting them for your own sake because they make you feel good, desire is being out of control and not being able to just think about what they want and instead give in to what you want. 

But the other part is that no one wants to be with someone who doesn't value themselves. They ALSO want to show how much they care about you, and how much they love you. You have to be able to let them do that too. 

[Madame deVenoge]

4 hours ago, Toth said:

Just came across a story of a girl complaining about her ex-boyfriend, where the guy behaved pretty much exactly like that ideal me that I have been fantasizing about, with him being very considerate, having long talks about wants and needs and trying to fulfill her every wish and... yet the story still ended with her dumping him for being awkward and inexperienced in bed and thus not making her feel desired enough. And they were 10 years younger than me. Sigh... I know the story of two strangers on the internet shouldn't concern me, but it still feels like a stab in the belly and makes me think that intimacy is impossible for guys like me...

It’s good to have an ideal you, and an ideal partner. However, you have to remember that an “ideal” is never achievable. Perfection does not exist.

My ideal partner did not and would not vote for Donald Trump, doesn’t hunt or fish, and does not consider any sporting event to be the highlight of their year. Do you know how long it’s taken to find this?? After 30 years in the state of Georgia?? *Just* found one that I’m attracted to who isn’t currently married!!

(My absolute requirements are a graduate degree and makes at least as much as I do, which narrows the field substantially.)

It’s not unrealistic to have conversations about wants and needs. But those can’t be the only conversations you have, you have to be able to carry on a conversation about your day, also, and your thoughts about the books vs the TV show (or whatever your shared interests are). You know this.

Perhaps this internet couple had other failings, perhaps she just decided she wanted to focus on something else, or he wanted to get married and she didn’t, or she couldn’t stand that he only liked white wine and not red wine.

After all, I got dumped after a year and a half for being a “vegetarian and a cat lover” - two things I never hid, from the get-go, nor did I make a big deal of those things. Most people never notice that I’m a vegetarian and only if we are on a Zoom meeting at work do they see a cat butt crossing the camera.

And “inexperienced in bed” is a terrible reason to dump someone. I’m sure that Wilt Chamberlain was very experienced in bed, but was he any good?? Probably not. Now, dumping someone for being selfish in bed is another story. 

Edited April 16 by Madame deVenoge

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

But that's not desire; that's devotion. Desire is grabbing that person and kissing them, desire is being selfish and wanting them for your own sake because they make you feel good, desire is being out of control and not being able to just think about what they want and instead give in to what you want. 

Damn dude.  This is..surprising coming from you.  Kinda feel like I’m reading the script to the end of your romantic comedy..or satire.  Either way, I’m in!

39 minutes ago, Madame deVenoge said:

My absolute requirements are a graduate degree and makes at least as much as I do, which narrows the field substantially.

You’ve said this many times.  May I suggest relaxing your standards?  May seem self serving, cuz yeah, pretty sure I make a lot less than you.  But I’m never going to meet you.  Just saying, based on what you’ve said previously, you make more than a lot of people.  Which means, ya know, in terms of median income you’re eliminating a lot of the pool.

I get making sure the guy is self sufficient, but this requirement is eliminating a lot of the eligible population for a rather unnecessary concern in most cases.  I really do suspect there’s a lot of good guys out there you’re missing out on.  You can always ask for a pre-nup if it comes to that.  Hell, prolly should regardless.
 

[Toth]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Okay, so here's the thing - you cannot and should not be considerate to the point of selflessness. Talking about wants and needs is nice, but it's also really exhausting on the talker's side and doesn't end up making you feel particularly wanted; it makes you feel like you're a quest giver, and then are obligated to reward that person after they've completed it. The part about how she didn't feel desired enough I bet rings really weird to you - how could someone who is trying to do whatever they want not feeling desired? But that's not desire; that's devotion. Desire is grabbing that person and kissing them, desire is being selfish and wanting them for your own sake because they make you feel good, desire is being out of control and not being able to just think about what they want and instead give in to what you want. 

I think the issue is that I saw myself so much even in his flaws that she mentioned... and that's in fact this, that I just... never felt that strongly about anyone. And have to wonder whether this is because I've almost never met a female single so far and therefore rationally held myself back, or whether I stifled my emotions with my anxiety or whether I'm just straight up asexual (for which I have also plenty of evidence and the guy in the story was quite upfront about being asexual, but willing to try it anyway for her's sake). So it sounds to me like as long as I'm not able to feel for someone as strongly as to loose all inhibitions, I don't deserve to be loved back, huh...

Because quite frankly, selfishness is something I am very hesitant about either. At worst I am self-centered when I feel bad...

1 hour ago, Madame deVenoge said:

It’s good to have an ideal you, and an ideal partner. However, you have to remember that an “ideal” is never achievable. Perfection does not exist.

Hey, I'm well aware that this ideal me is still just me and still has my flaws under the surface. That's exactly why this story resonated as much with me because her descriptions of it matched with how even in my own fantasies I see myself awkward as hell when it comes to sex and find the idea of intimacy far more desirable than any of the mechanics, if that makes any sense.

2 hours ago, Madame deVenoge said:

Perhaps this internet couple had other failings, perhaps she just decided she wanted to focus on something else, or he wanted to get married and she didn’t, or she couldn’t stand that he only liked white wine and not red wine.

Well no, she was perfectly clear about it that he was crossing all of her boxes with the sole exception that after a month she still needed to guide him in bed and that that killed all attraction to him. She ended up saying that they are still friends and that she hopes he gets together with someone who likes it less rough for him to make the experience he needs.

[BigFatCoward]

6 hours ago, Madame deVenoge said:

I(My absolute requirements are a graduate degree and makes at least as much as I do, which narrows the field substantially.)

 

'Makes' is probably the wrong way to think about it (personally I don't care about money in a partner or particularly in general, I made over 3x what my wife made 15 years ago, she going to make more than me for the rest of our relationship) 2 people making the same salary can have vastly different disposable wealth and assets.

Agreeing how money should be spent and what is important is key, not how much you have IMO. 

 

Edited April 16 by BigFatCoward

[IheartIheartTesla]

"Pays the same marginal tax rate as me" is my solution to broaden her dating pool, and best hope the US doesn't adopt a flat income tax rate  anytime soon.

[Madame deVenoge]

I’ll admit it’s not super hard and fast of a rule - I think only Mr. MBA probably made significantly less. My other men have generally made a lot more, but the whole point is, if I want to go to Europe, or something, I want someone who can reasonably afford to come with me. I also want someone who has a career where if I take them to dinner with a tax or audit partner, or an executive, knows how to behave and can carry on a conversation. 

[IheartIheartTesla]

Yes, and I think the statistics bear that out in that most successful relationships tend to be with partners in the same socioeconomic class. Also, in terms of preference its fairly common, which most people have internalized.

Although I have to point out one of my favorite Onion headlines "Woman Relieved Soulmate Turned Out To Be In Same Socioeconomic Bracket"

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I really don't buy into the need to make around what your partner does. You don't want a leach that does nothing and takes advantage of you, but I'd rather be with someone who has a job that makes them happy than be with a person who is miserable despite cashing a good check. To each their own. 

[Madame deVenoge]

13 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Yes, and I think the statistics bear that out in that most successful relationships tend to be with partners in the same socioeconomic class. Also, in terms of preference its fairly common, which most people have internalized.

Although I have to point out one of my favorite Onion headlines "Woman Relieved Soulmate Turned Out To Be In Same Socioeconomic Bracket"

Hahahaha!!!! Found that Onion article, where she is also relieved that he is of the same race 

Statistically, a successful relationship is also within 5 years of one’s age. 

The Doctor was 7 years older, which wasn’t a huge issue, for me, and we had both had a lot of the same experiences growing up, but he often got a little tetchy that I was in better shape that he was. That kind of bothered him.

I’ve noticed anything beyond 10 years in either direction can be difficult. Having gone 15 years in both directions….doomed to failure, for me.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Today’s my 8th wedding anniversary, and July will be the 10 year anniversary of our first date!

When we first started going out, she made a good bit more than me (nurse) but as she’s been at the top of her band for years, it only increases due to cost of living pay rises.

But I’ve switched jobs a couple times (same organisation, been there 20 years), and I’ve more or less caught up with her ‘basic’ pay - she does get shift allowances.

Never been a problrm but I’m hally to be making more of a contribution 

Edited April 16 by Derfel Cadarn

[Toth]

1 hour ago, Madame deVenoge said:

I’ll admit it’s not super hard and fast of a rule - I think only Mr. MBA probably made significantly less. My other men have generally made a lot more, but the whole point is, if I want to go to Europe, or something, I want someone who can reasonably afford to come with me. I also want someone who has a career where if I take them to dinner with a tax or audit partner, or an executive, knows how to behave and can carry on a conversation. 

The "knows how to behave" part just gave me flashbacks to a former colleague of mine telling "funny" dating stories of hers. She was a former model and actress before becoming theater teacher and was absurdly conventionally attractive. The thing is, she somehow almost entirely went out with rich snobs who behaved cartoonishly evil towards restaurant staff, apparently as an attempt to show off to her that they can get away with it. Given how she still kept downplaying it as "people with money are just eccentric", it really made me question her taste in men, I must admit, but I also take it as a sign that going after men with a lot of money may backfire.

Granted, I can also see the point that a guy with less money may also get a complex about it and become nasty, because some people just have ego issues either way, but I'm certain there must be some kind of balance where the "vibe" is one where they look above becoming a hassle because of that.

[Madame deVenoge]

23 minutes ago, Toth said:

The "knows how to behave" part just gave me flashbacks to a former colleague of mine telling "funny" dating stories of hers. She was a former model and actress before becoming theater teacher and was absurdly conventionally attractive. The thing is, she somehow almost entirely went out with rich snobs who behaved cartoonishly evil towards restaurant staff, apparently as an attempt to show off to her that they can get away with it. Given how she still kept downplaying it as "people with money are just eccentric", it really made me question her taste in men, I must admit, but I also take it as a sign that going after men with a lot of money may backfire.

Granted, I can also see the point that a guy with less money may also get a complex about it and become nasty, because some people just have ego issues either way, but I'm certain there must be some kind of balance where the "vibe" is one where they look above becoming a hassle because of that.

Anyone who behaves badly to service people of any sort shows absolutely no class and is immediately of no interest.

It’s a HUGE red flag. 

It is also on par with “don’t you know who I am?” Which, if that question needs to be asked, no, they don’t know who you are, and it also doesn’t matter, and also, that person asking the question isn’t as important as they think they are.

ETA - on the topic of men who make significantly less money - most of them SAY it’s ok, but they can get really defensive about it. Example: my ex husband was initially tooootally cool when my salary surpassed his, but then my career really took off, and his….didn’t. It was very subtle, but he had some very real “issues” about it. Jealousy, almost. There are a number of heterosexual men for whom this is a problem. 

Edited April 16 by Madame deVenoge

[Maithanet]

I'm surprised that a guy with no kids in his 40s who makes 100k a year would be unable to afford an annual trip to Europe.  Unless you are planning on staying at 5 star hotels the whole time, that seems extremely doable.  I did international trips to Argentina, Thailand, England, Belize, and Tanzania in the 2008-2014 timeframe, and I was making a lot less than that.