The Brackens are probably right about the origin of the feud with the Blackwoods.

[balefired-ed]

Evidence is simple, the Brackens are native to the Riverlands, the Blackwoods are from the North. More likely than not we have a situation where the Brackens offered land to the Blackwoods after they were driven from the north in the same way as the Stark/Manderly deal, and then at a future point the Blackwoods rebelled.

[Alester Florent]

14 hours ago, balefired-ed said:

Evidence is simple, the Brackens are native to the Riverlands, the Blackwoods are from the North. 

How do we know the Brackens are Riverlands natives? They could originally be from the Reach for all we know.

[Craving Peaches]

I agree because I am so sick of the blatant Blackwood favouritism.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

How do we know the Brackens are Riverlands natives? They could originally be from the Reach for all we know.

This maybe the blackwoods moved south with all the wealth they could carry and they upjumped a local family (sorta like the cleganes)  who betrayed them later

[Aebram]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree because I am so sick of the blatant Blackwood favouritism.

Favouritism from whom? The fans, or the George himself?

On the pages, I think the Blackwoods definitely come off as more likable. It's most evident in Dance 48 when Jaime negotiates the surrender of Raventree. Tytos Blackwood seems brave and honorable, while Jonos Bracken comes off as somewhat selfish and weaselly.

Also, looking back through the history of Westeros, it seems that Blackwoods have married into a number of prominent families, and/or done things that make them notable in the histories; Brackens, much less so. The summary of the Brackens' history in the wiki mentions a few betrayals, and a number of deaths in memorable circumstances, but not much of anything admirable.

Regarding the OP's question, yes, the evidence is simple; maybe too simple. The Blackwoods came to the Riverlands during the Age of Heroes. Hundreds or thousands of years have passed since then, most of them poorly documented. We don't have any evidence that House Blackwood was a vassal of House Bracken. And if it was, perhaps Bracken ruled too harshly, and Blackwood rose in a justifiable rebellion.

So I would say "possibly" rather than "probably." But it's an interesting point, and the comparison with House Manderly makes it even more so. Thanks for spotting it.

[astarkchoice]

24 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Favouritism from whom? The fans, or the George himself?

On the pages, I think the Blackwoods definitely come off as more likable. It's most evident in Dance 48 when Jaime negotiates the surrender of Raventree. Tytos Blackwood seems brave and honorable, while Jonos Bracken comes off as somewhat selfish and weaselly.

Also, looking back through the history of Westeros, it seems that Blackwoods have married into a number of prominent families, and/or done things that make them notable in the histories; Brackens, much less so. The summary of the Brackens' history in the wiki mentions a few betrayals, and a number of deaths in memorable circumstances, but not much of anything admirable.

Regarding the OP's question, yes, the evidence is simple; maybe too simple. The Blackwoods came to the Riverlands during the Age of Heroes. Hundreds or thousands of years have passed since then, most of them poorly documented. We don't have any evidence that House Blackwood was a vassal of House Bracken. And if it was, perhaps Bracken ruled too harshly, and Blackwood rose in a justifiable rebellion.

So I would say "possibly" rather than "probably." But it's an interesting point, and the comparison with House Manderly makes it even more so. Thanks for spotting it.

 

It may be the fact families arent always the same.down the years

the freys..current ones are horrible but there have been  brave ones, the starks are noble and honourable but previous ones blood thirsty and imperialistic, the hightowers once deeply involved with the afairs of the land (damce of dragons) now insular etc

[Northern Sword]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree because I am so sick of the blatant Blackwood favouritism.

I agree as well... but love the Blackwood Favoritism. They rank as one of the most interesting houses.

Fuck those Brackens. lol

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Aebram said:

Favouritism from whom? The fans, or the George himself?

Everyone.

11 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Fuck those Brackens. lol

Seven willing, Raventree Hall will burn down next book.

[Northern Sword]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Everyone.

Seven willing, Raventree Hall will burn down next book.

It is a lopsided PR war against those up to no good Brackens. 

Only a monster would burn Raventree Hall. With Bran and the Old Gods resurgence, the Seven don't want no smoke. They have enough of a problem with Mel and R'hllor converting the faithful.

[James Steller]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree because I am so sick of the blatant Blackwood favouritism.

I’m mostly a fan of House Blackwood, except for Brynden Rivers. One of the most repulsive and evil characters that GRRM ever created. 
On the other hand, I’m mostly indifferent to House Bracken. I have especially mixed feelings about Bittersteel. Yes, he’s partly responsible for the Blackfyre Rebellion, but he’s still better than Bloodraven.

Edited February 26 by James Steller

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, James Steller said:

I’m mostly a fan of House Blackwood, except for Brynden Rivers. One of the most repulsive and evil characters that GRRM ever created. 

Yeah he's evil.

2 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Only a monster would burn Raventree Hall. With Bran and the Old Gods resurgence, the Seven don't want no smoke. They have enough of a problem with Mel and R'hllor converting the faithful.

The pathetic Blackwoods let the Heart Tree die, showing extreme disrespect to the Old Gods, so it is only right that they lose their seat.

[Northern Sword]

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I’m mostly a fan of House Blackwood, except for Brynden Rivers. One of the most repulsive and evil characters that GRRM ever created. 

Brynden Rivers was a good boy, he never did anything wrong. Faithful and dedicated, loved archery. Lost his eye fighting for the king. Where as Bittersteel was a traitor. Rebel scum. 

 

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The pathetic Blackwoods let the Heart Tree die, showing extreme disrespect to the Old Gods, so it is only right that they lose their seat.

Everyone knows the Brackens poisoned the tree. Desecration of a holy tree, for shame. The lows they go to, show their character.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

Everyone knows the Brackens poisoned the tree. Desecration of a holy tree, for shame. The lows they go to, show their character.

That's not true but if it is the Blackwoods deserved it.

[Hippocras]

13 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Everyone.

Seven willing, Raventree Hall will burn down next book.

Whatever the origins of the dispute, it seems clear IMO that the Blackwoods have played the game more successfully.

I would love to maintain neutrality, but a review of the history makes it hard. If Brackens were initially first men, then when the Andals came they betrayed their gods. Then they helped bring in House Hoare. They supported the zealots of the faith millitant. Then they fought for Maegor. One led a selfish mutiny at the Wall. Later the supported the darkest phases and actions of the greens.

They have a consistent pattern of humourlessness, and fighting for causes that do not favour women, or the general good of their region really. Not the easiest family to love.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

If Brackens were initially first men, then when the Andals came they betrayed their gods.

How do you know that the Old Gods aren't just covered by a certain aspect of the Seven like the Stranger? Also, we don't know whether the Old Gods were even gods or just powerful greenseers.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Both Bittersteel and Bloodraven were assholes, and both caused untold amount of deaths and suffering because of their petty hatred and rivalry, it's one of these cases where there were no real good guy in the Blackfyre Rebellions.

[Willam Stark]

I agree with that, let's have some balance for once in this feud.

[Hippocras]

If you ask me, the reason why they disagree on who were the original kings and who the usurpers may have to do with my hunch that the Blackwoods follow somewhat matrilineal practices (and the Brackens don’t). It is more a hypothesis than a theory mind you, but is rooted in deep tracking of clues in lineages, and small moments such as Lord Blackwood asking for his son to be taken as hostage and not his daughter. Even in an overarching Westerosi patriarchy, the system would be maintained by tracking female descendants who married into other families and re-incorporating their line into the Blackwood (extended) family after one or two generations. The reason they would stick to this system IMO has to do with the greensight; it was in their family and to keep it there they needed the female line.

Imagine there was an ancient pre-historic ruler who died, leaving behind an older daughter, married perhaps into a Northern family (Blackwood origins), and a younger son, much like the Dance. For the Blackwoods,  by their system, the daughter was heir. For the Brackens, by their system, the son was heir. Both considered the other the usurper, legitimately.

 

Edited February 28 by Hippocras

[sifth]

On 2/26/2024 at 4:48 AM, astarkchoice said:

 

It may be the fact families arent always the same.down the years

the freys..current ones are horrible but there have been  brave ones, the starks are noble and honourable but previous ones blood thirsty and imperialistic, the hightowers once deeply involved with the afairs of the land (damce of dragons) now insular etc

I hope House of the Dragon shows the Freys next season and has them be one of Rhaenyra’s most loyal supporters, just like in the novel. It’s a rather fun subversion.

[Lord of Oldstones]

Only reason i like Blackwood is them staying true to their roots in face of Andal invaders. They are like an island in a wide sea. Always find it weird given their peasants must be mostly Sevener. 

But i empathize with Brackens. They were right to support lawful heir Aegon II over his traitor sister. Also, Bittersteel wasnt a good person but Bloodraven was the worst. 

Their lands and septs were despoiled by Blackwoods during dance, which everyone fails to remember while heaping praises to Blackwood.

Edited February 28 by Lord of Oldstones