balefired-ed Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Evidence is simple, the Brackens are native to the Riverlands, the Blackwoods are from the North. More likely than not we have a situation where the Brackens offered land to the Blackwoods after they were driven from the north in the same way as the Stark/Manderly deal, and then at a future point the Blackwoods rebelled. Northern Sword 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 14 hours ago, balefired-ed said: Evidence is simple, the Brackens are native to the Riverlands, the Blackwoods are from the North. How do we know the Brackens are Riverlands natives? They could originally be from the Reach for all we know. astarkchoice and Lady Isis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 I agree because I am so sick of the blatant Blackwood favouritism. Vante, Vaegon the dragonless, VisenyasDragon and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Alester Florent said: How do we know the Brackens are Riverlands natives? They could originally be from the Reach for all we know. This maybe the blackwoods moved south with all the wealth they could carry and they upjumped a local family (sorta like the cleganes) who betrayed them later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: I agree because I am so sick of the blatant Blackwood favouritism. Favouritism from whom? The fans, or the George himself? On the pages, I think the Blackwoods definitely come off as more likable. It's most evident in Dance 48 when Jaime negotiates the surrender of Raventree. Tytos Blackwood seems brave and honorable, while Jonos Bracken comes off as somewhat selfish and weaselly. Also, looking back through the history of Westeros, it seems that Blackwoods have married into a number of prominent families, and/or done things that make them notable in the histories; Brackens, much less so. The summary of the Brackens' history in the wiki mentions a few betrayals, and a number of deaths in memorable circumstances, but not much of anything admirable. Regarding the OP's question, yes, the evidence is simple; maybe too simple. The Blackwoods came to the Riverlands during the Age of Heroes. Hundreds or thousands of years have passed since then, most of them poorly documented. We don't have any evidence that House Blackwood was a vassal of House Bracken. And if it was, perhaps Bracken ruled too harshly, and Blackwood rose in a justifiable rebellion. So I would say "possibly" rather than "probably." But it's an interesting point, and the comparison with House Manderly makes it even more so. Thanks for spotting it. Lady Isis and astarkchoice 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 24 minutes ago, Aebram said: Favouritism from whom? The fans, or the George himself? On the pages, I think the Blackwoods definitely come off as more likable. It's most evident in Dance 48 when Jaime negotiates the surrender of Raventree. Tytos Blackwood seems brave and honorable, while Jonos Bracken comes off as somewhat selfish and weaselly. Also, looking back through the history of Westeros, it seems that Blackwoods have married into a number of prominent families, and/or done things that make them notable in the histories; Brackens, much less so. The summary of the Brackens' history in the wiki mentions a few betrayals, and a number of deaths in memorable circumstances, but not much of anything admirable. Regarding the OP's question, yes, the evidence is simple; maybe too simple. The Blackwoods came to the Riverlands during the Age of Heroes. Hundreds or thousands of years have passed since then, most of them poorly documented. We don't have any evidence that House Blackwood was a vassal of House Bracken. And if it was, perhaps Bracken ruled too harshly, and Blackwood rose in a justifiable rebellion. So I would say "possibly" rather than "probably." But it's an interesting point, and the comparison with House Manderly makes it even more so. Thanks for spotting it. It may be the fact families arent always the same.down the years the freys..current ones are horrible but there have been brave ones, the starks are noble and honourable but previous ones blood thirsty and imperialistic, the hightowers once deeply involved with the afairs of the land (damce of dragons) now insular etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I agree because I am so sick of the blatant Blackwood favouritism. I agree as well... but love the Blackwood Favoritism. They rank as one of the most interesting houses. Fuck those Brackens. lol Craving Peaches, Kal-L, CassDarry and 3 others 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 6 hours ago, Aebram said: Favouritism from whom? The fans, or the George himself? Everyone. 11 minutes ago, Northern Sword said: Fuck those Brackens. lol Seven willing, Raventree Hall will burn down next book. CassDarry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Everyone. Seven willing, Raventree Hall will burn down next book. It is a lopsided PR war against those up to no good Brackens. Only a monster would burn Raventree Hall. With Bran and the Old Gods resurgence, the Seven don't want no smoke. They have enough of a problem with Mel and R'hllor converting the faithful. Lady Isis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) 8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: I agree because I am so sick of the blatant Blackwood favouritism. I’m mostly a fan of House Blackwood, except for Brynden Rivers. One of the most repulsive and evil characters that GRRM ever created. On the other hand, I’m mostly indifferent to House Bracken. I have especially mixed feelings about Bittersteel. Yes, he’s partly responsible for the Blackfyre Rebellion, but he’s still better than Bloodraven. Edited February 26 by James Steller Kal-L 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Just now, James Steller said: I’m mostly a fan of House Blackwood, except for Brynden Rivers. One of the most repulsive and evil characters that GRRM ever created. Yeah he's evil. 2 minutes ago, Northern Sword said: Only a monster would burn Raventree Hall. With Bran and the Old Gods resurgence, the Seven don't want no smoke. They have enough of a problem with Mel and R'hllor converting the faithful. The pathetic Blackwoods let the Heart Tree die, showing extreme disrespect to the Old Gods, so it is only right that they lose their seat. Northern Sword 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 5 minutes ago, James Steller said: I’m mostly a fan of House Blackwood, except for Brynden Rivers. One of the most repulsive and evil characters that GRRM ever created. Brynden Rivers was a good boy, he never did anything wrong. Faithful and dedicated, loved archery. Lost his eye fighting for the king. Where as Bittersteel was a traitor. Rebel scum. 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: The pathetic Blackwoods let the Heart Tree die, showing extreme disrespect to the Old Gods, so it is only right that they lose their seat. Everyone knows the Brackens poisoned the tree. Desecration of a holy tree, for shame. The lows they go to, show their character. Lady Isis, Prince of the North and James Steller 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Northern Sword said: Everyone knows the Brackens poisoned the tree. Desecration of a holy tree, for shame. The lows they go to, show their character. That's not true but if it is the Blackwoods deserved it. Northern Sword, James Steller and Vaegon the dragonless 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 13 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Everyone. Seven willing, Raventree Hall will burn down next book. Whatever the origins of the dispute, it seems clear IMO that the Blackwoods have played the game more successfully. I would love to maintain neutrality, but a review of the history makes it hard. If Brackens were initially first men, then when the Andals came they betrayed their gods. Then they helped bring in House Hoare. They supported the zealots of the faith millitant. Then they fought for Maegor. One led a selfish mutiny at the Wall. Later the supported the darkest phases and actions of the greens. They have a consistent pattern of humourlessness, and fighting for causes that do not favour women, or the general good of their region really. Not the easiest family to love. Nittanian, Kal-L, Northern Sword and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Hippocras said: If Brackens were initially first men, then when the Andals came they betrayed their gods. How do you know that the Old Gods aren't just covered by a certain aspect of the Seven like the Stranger? Also, we don't know whether the Old Gods were even gods or just powerful greenseers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Both Bittersteel and Bloodraven were assholes, and both caused untold amount of deaths and suffering because of their petty hatred and rivalry, it's one of these cases where there were no real good guy in the Blackfyre Rebellions. Kal-L 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willam Stark Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I agree with that, let's have some balance for once in this feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) If you ask me, the reason why they disagree on who were the original kings and who the usurpers may have to do with my hunch that the Blackwoods follow somewhat matrilineal practices (and the Brackens don’t). It is more a hypothesis than a theory mind you, but is rooted in deep tracking of clues in lineages, and small moments such as Lord Blackwood asking for his son to be taken as hostage and not his daughter. Even in an overarching Westerosi patriarchy, the system would be maintained by tracking female descendants who married into other families and re-incorporating their line into the Blackwood (extended) family after one or two generations. The reason they would stick to this system IMO has to do with the greensight; it was in their family and to keep it there they needed the female line. Imagine there was an ancient pre-historic ruler who died, leaving behind an older daughter, married perhaps into a Northern family (Blackwood origins), and a younger son, much like the Dance. For the Blackwoods, by their system, the daughter was heir. For the Brackens, by their system, the son was heir. Both considered the other the usurper, legitimately. Edited February 28 by Hippocras Wizz-The-Smith and Northern Sword 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On 2/26/2024 at 4:48 AM, astarkchoice said: It may be the fact families arent always the same.down the years the freys..current ones are horrible but there have been brave ones, the starks are noble and honourable but previous ones blood thirsty and imperialistic, the hightowers once deeply involved with the afairs of the land (damce of dragons) now insular etc I hope House of the Dragon shows the Freys next season and has them be one of Rhaenyra’s most loyal supporters, just like in the novel. It’s a rather fun subversion. astarkchoice and Northern Sword 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oldstones Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) Only reason i like Blackwood is them staying true to their roots in face of Andal invaders. They are like an island in a wide sea. Always find it weird given their peasants must be mostly Sevener. But i empathize with Brackens. They were right to support lawful heir Aegon II over his traitor sister. Also, Bittersteel wasnt a good person but Bloodraven was the worst. Their lands and septs were despoiled by Blackwoods during dance, which everyone fails to remember while heaping praises to Blackwood. Edited February 28 by Lord of Oldstones Craving Peaches and Northern Sword 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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