US politics - Yes country for old men

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Maybe it's an inevitable thing. But there's way too much info on the history of revolution to expect anything rosy. Even framing it as necessary seems naive to me. Like, maybe it's bound to happen, but it almost certainly will go to shit.

You mean like the North American Revolution?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

To put Castro in that company is freakin' ridiculous.  The others killed millions.  Of their own people. Castro ... not so much.  Unless you wanna prosecute that dead dog of the War of Angolan independence, in which Cuban fighters held off Portugual, then the South African and Nambian German forces who intended to turn Angola into apartheid South Africa?

[Garbled nonsense for people to pick apart]

Edited March 7 by Phylum of Alexandria
snark and clarity

[Kalbear]

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

The chances of Pakistan shooting down our aircraft is much less than the chance of Israel doing it, just from a technological point of view.

Moreover, the reason we didn't always ask permission of Pakistan was that Pakistan military intelligence was often in cahoots with the terrorists we were targeting and giving them warnings. But the US takes the importance of permission seriously, and high-level negotiations with Pakistan were a thing a couple of years ago.

A couple of years ago, but not in, say, 2010. 

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

What places where the country had the realistic capability of shooting down our aircraft and is also not involved in hostilities against us did we fail to clear overflights for purposes of providing aid? I am curious.

Serbia springs to mind. Iraq as well, especially when dealing with the Kurds. Ain't like those cargo jets are stealthy. 

33 minutes ago, Ran said:

I mean, Israel is approving the air drops, so I guess the complaint is that Israel is ... uh, supporting the entry of humanitarian aid into Gaza?

The complaint is that it makes the US look weak. That we have to beg Israel for the ability to give people aid, and only if Israel allows it will it happen. I wouldn't characterize it as them supporting it, either; they're just allowing it. They aren't providing any material aid or value for either of these things. 

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Serbia springs to mind

We weren't involved in hostilities with Serbia? Surprising news!

 

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The complaint is that it makes the US look weak.

Only to idiots who don't understand that you don't fuck around with overflight of allies who are going to give you permission if you ask.

But sure, Moar American Imperialism!

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

 

But sure, Moar American Imperialism!

Inn't that somethin! We got us a Kalbear arguing that Americans go where we please and damn the soverignty of anyone who's to say different. What oddness. 

 

[DireWolfSpirit]

I have no problem with hearing reports of Ukranians killing Russians and have been regularly thumbing the "Like" button on those for the past year or however long weve been doing Ukraine threads.

I actively enjoy the invaders failing, with thier lives as the price, and sleep fabulously taking that side.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Dont know about the 'floating pier' specifically, but there is also note of the US opening a third landcrossing for aid to Gaza (in the north), and the plan is to go with or without the Israelis. I'm presuming this goes for all aspects of aid.

The floating pier will take at least 30 days to complete and be handled by the Army Corp of Engineers 

[Bironic]

25 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But his revolutionary uprising led to the curtailment on freedom of expression and protest among the people of Cuba, something that Pete Seeger likely had to actively ignore. 

Yes Protest and freedom of expression were important parts of the government program under Dictator Fulgencio Batista...

/irony off

(not a fan of the cuban regime here to be clear)

[Phylum of Alexandria]

40 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Yes Protest and freedom of expression were important parts of the government program under Dictator Fulgencio Batista...

/irony off

(not a fan of the cuban regime here to be clear)

Sorry. I will fire my editor posthaste.

 

Edit: I was just trying to say that he ended up being another despotic leader. Not as murderous, more a "Victor Orban" of communism, including his enabling of a more dangerous global power.

I will stop commenting for now as I don't have much time to write very carefully.

Edited March 7 by Phylum of Alexandria

[Kalbear]

46 minutes ago, Ran said:

We weren't involved in hostilities with Serbia? Surprising news!

Sorry, Bosnia? There's been a lot of US aid delivered to places. 

46 minutes ago, Ran said:

Only to idiots who don't understand that you don't fuck around with overflight of allies who are going to give you permission if you ask.

But sure, Moar American Imperialism!

My point is that it does make the US look weak that we have to ask - they can be idiots or not, but the US humbly suggesting that we can drop things and be treated the same way as, say, Jordan's system is not a position of strength. That we're doing it 5 months in is another example of this. 

This isn't exactly my opinion solely, either  - here's a head of humanitarian aid talking about it:

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/01/us-airdrops-in-gaza-expose-limit-to-bidens-israel-policy-00144528

Quote

For close watchers of the Israel-Hamas conflict, which has raged following the militants’ Oct. 7 attack, the move to drop aid from the skies signals Biden can’t persuade Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to do more for suffering Palestinians.

“We look 100 percent weak,” said Dave Harden, a former humanitarian assistance coordinator at the U.S. Agency for International Development. “Administration officials are doing this just to make themselves feel better.”

...

That the Biden administration has to think this way, and is about to launch airdrop missions, tells Lister that the U.S. approach is limited in its effectiveness.

“The fact that the U.S. is having to mobilize military resources to airdrop aid into Gaza is a staggering symbol of just how emphatic Israel’s constraints are on access,” he said.

Basically this shows how limited the US power is here, both in ability to drive change and the requirement to get support for it. 

[Zorral]

We cd quit on the miliitary and other aid, material and financial support provided by US to Israel.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to say he was a mass murderer like Stalin or Pol Pot. But his revolutionary uprising led to the curtailment on freedom of expression and protest among the people of Cuba, something that Pete Seeger likely had to actively ignore. 

You ,ean the curtailments and censorship of freedom of expression going on right here, in this country, even in university dorms, social media, and just media generally?

[maarsen]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to say he was a mass murderer like Stalin or Pol Pot. But his revolutionary uprising led to the curtailment on freedom of expression and protest among the people of Cuba, something that Pete Seeger likely had to actively ignore. 

Curtailment of expression? Cuba was run by a fascist dictator for the benefit of the American businesses and Mafia there before Castro. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Support for Israel is fairly popular in the US across party lines. So cutting aid to Israel sounds like a fantastic idea, if you want to tank Biden's campaign.

Yes, Democrats/Biden voters are more diverse than their GOP counterparts, and this makes life much more difficult for Biden trying to not alienate anybody. Still cutting aid to Israel would be a pretty dumb idea.

[Larry of the Lawn]

12 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Support for Israel is fairly popular in the US across party lines. So cutting aid to Israel sounds like a fantastic idea, if you want to tank Biden's campaign.

Yes, Democrats/Biden voters are more diverse than their GOP counterparts, and this makes life much more difficult for Biden trying to not alienate anybody. Still cutting aid to Israel would be a pretty dumb idea.

Support for Israel is popular, so is support for a ceasefire.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Yep, to use the carrot and stick metaphor. How do you compel Israel into a ceasefire, when you can't even take the proverbial carrot (financial aid) away, without pissing off parts of your base (the stick, sanctions (not to mention miltary strikes), are obviously out of the question). All that is left is sorta pleading with Netanyahu to grant a ceasefire, which is sorta what Biden is doing.

Edited March 7 by A Horse Named Stranger

[Larry of the Lawn]

9 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Yep, to use the carrot and stick metaphor. How do you compel Israel into a ceasefire, when you can't even take the proverbial carrot (financial aid) away, without pissing off parts of your base (the stick, sanctions (not to mention miltary strikes), are obviously out of the question). All that is left is sorta pleading with Netanyahu to grant a ceasefire, which is sorta what Biden is doing.

Have Schumer introduce a bill to make all material support to Israel contingent on a ceasefire, or have Biden invite Tlaib and Bowman etc I to the WH to address concerns.  Use the Minnesota and Michigan primary "uncommitteds" as evidence that Biden needs to move on this or risk losing votes.  Has he done this behind the scenes?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  

There's a lot of room between the status quo and actually cutting aid.  I'm not seeing much attempt to explore it.

 

Edit: if the issue actually comes down to a cynical "what costs the most votes" and it's a coin toss, why not err on the side of not supporting genocide?

Edited March 7 by Larry of the Lawn

[A Horse Named Stranger]

You really want another US politics thread closed before its time, don't you? (not that it would be that bad, I've an awesome title for a US Polt thread in mind). So really, let's not turn this into another Israel-Gaza-Hamas thread. Only that much, I'd be sorta careful with the term genocide.

As in what costs more votes. If you want to take that cynical view. Where are the Palestine supporters supposed to go? The really commited pro Israel voters could join the Christian-Judeo-Rodeo at the GOP, who can't scream Israel loud enough.

[kissdbyfire]

never mind

Edited March 7 by kissdbyfire

[Larry of the Lawn]

38 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

You really want another US politics thread closed before its time, don't you? (not that it would be that bad, I've an awesome title for a US Polt thread in mind). So really, let's not turn this into another Israel-Gaza-Hamas thread. Only that much, I'd be sorta careful with the term genocide.

As in what costs more votes. If you want to take that cynical view. Where are the Palestine supporters supposed to go? The really commited pro Israel voters could join the Christian-Judeo-Rodeo at the GOP, who can't scream Israel loud enough.

Huh.  I wonder what the hivemind here would think about that.  What does it mean to be a pro Israel Dem voter,?  Im pro Israel in that I support their right to exist.  

If you want to take that cynical view, do your really think that Dem voters who are more pro Israel are going to vote for the guy who has no problem criminalizing abortion, putting the Bible in schools, etc?

As far as saying "genocide", my bad if I missed some directive from the mods?  I'm happy to keep the conversation within whatever boundaries are set. 

 

Edited March 7 by Larry of the Lawn