3 Body Problem (Show Spoilers Only)

[House Cambodia]

On 3/11/2024 at 4:18 AM, horangi said:

Out of curiosity, have you watched the Chinese series? I thought they did a good job of sticking mostly with the book and actually improved on the characterization without dumping the science.

I'm relieved a couple of you watched the Chinese version. A couple of observations: The book is definitely somewhat thin when it comes to characterization, and you're right, the show did add some depth without veering away from the book.

Second point - I completely get IFR saying the pacing was too slow; it surely isn't suitable for most western viewers. However, for me, that is a huge plus of the series. 30 episodes (with ENG subs) allows it to adhere to the book, and it totally worked for me.

I think we can safely assume Netflix will take the opposite route - fast pacing, lots of crashes and bangs and no too much dialogue wasted on science-and-philosophy stuff (or keeping it pretentiously mysterious, like Westworld). Having loved the ROEP books, I'd be banging my head on a wall watching this upcoming series, but thanks to the Tencent version I'll content myself with smugly thinking, 'Yeah, whatever. I already saw the good version'.

[polishgenius]

The book is a big, dumb, set-piece heavy SF epic, isn't it a bit weird to be pre-emptively slating the Netflix version on the suspicion that it might be... well, loyal to the book in that sense? 

[IFR]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

The book is a big, dumb, set-piece heavy SF epic, isn't it a bit weird to be pre-emptively slating the Netflix version on the suspicion that it might be... well, loyal to the book in that sense? 

Clearly they disagree with you that the books are dumb. I do too, of course, and I don't think at any point you've made an effective defense of your position of why they are dumb, however convincing your opinion is to you.

There are scifi books I like better than this series. But not many. And scifi is a rich genre full of great material.

[polishgenius]

11 hours ago, IFR said:

I don't think at any point you've made an effective defense of your position of why they are dumb,

 

Didn't realise this was a court of law.  

In any case I could possibly have used 'silly' rather than 'dumb' to indicate that in this instance, at least broadly, I don't necessarily mean in as a negative (I have genuine negative issues with TBP of course, but the big ones aren't related to this). It has its serious aspects but the sciency parts of the story are goofy as hell. That's fine, I like lots of goofy things. 

 

Anyway what I'm basically saying is that the book spends ages setting up certain moments with jargony explanations. Some of those did irritate me because they were such obvious nonsense being presented in the same manner that a hard SF writer would present real theories etc, but even setting that aside, the show won't need to do that because it's way easier to set things like that up visually. It won't be a betrayal of the book if the show has a lot of time for those set-pieces, which the book loves.

 

Edited March 15 by polishgenius

[IFR]

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Didn't realise this was a court of law. 

Truly, no one expects the inquisition.

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

In any case I could possibly have used 'silly' rather than 'dumb' to indicate that in this instance, at least broadly, I don't necessarily mean in as a negative (I have genuine negative issues with TBP of course, but the big ones aren't related to this). It has its serious aspects but the sciency parts of the story are goofy as hell. That's fine, I like lots of goofy things. 

 

Anyway what I'm basically saying is that the book spends ages setting up certain moments with jargony explanations. Some of those did irritate me because they were such obvious nonsense being presented in the same manner that a hard SF writer would present real theories etc, but even setting that aside, the show won't need to do that because it's way easier to set things like that up visually. It won't be a betrayal of the book if the show has a lot of time for those set-pieces, which the book loves.

I honestly wonder how many books you consider 'hard scifi'. Even the likes of Arthur C Clarke and Asimov fell to the exact issue you describe in their books. Neal Stephenson and Greg Egan, perhaps? Very few could operate as true hard scifi authors under this standard.

At any rate, from the reviews and Woo, Benioff and Weiss' stated objective for the show, it does seem that while the show doesn't shy from science, it definitely focuses on expediting the pacing rather than science lectures, so you may find this show more to your liking. They also had a jet propulsion engineer and particle physicist as consultants, though that of course doesn't guarantee that the consultation wasn't ignored for the sake of the rule of cool. We'll see, I suppose.

[karaddin]

The sexual violence being increased (from an already somewhat high level in the books) was the thing that had me stop watching GoT in early S5 and that's the big one I hold against D&D as a result. I haven't read TBP but I have the impression that this is probably going to be safe on that front, so between that and having the full story already in book form rather than needing to write the ending themselves I'm hopeful this can pull it off. 

[House Cambodia]

40 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I haven't read TBP but I have the impression that this is probably going to be safe on that front

I've read the trilogy and can confirm that is wholly absent. There is a case for arguing there's an element of sexism (or old-school gender stereotyping), especially in the third volume, but that's a whole other discussion!

[polishgenius]

6 hours ago, IFR said:

Even the likes of Arthur C Clarke and Asimov fell to the exact issue you describe in their books.

 

I never liked Asimov anyway (not because of that, I just don't like his prose), but Clarke? Not really. Sure, not everything in his books was nailed-down scientific fact and some of it turned out to be bunkum, but if he ever got into the weeds it was via a progression that made sense (at least to me), and didn't contradict stuff we know to be true. Or (as in 2001) he did just go 'hey it's basically magic' and not go into it much. 

The parts that bothered me in TBP were detailed explanations of things that not just weren't realistic but my brain was yelling were wrong. The pages of explanation for the solar reflection was the big one I still remember, but there were others, they just didn't stick in my brain, I'd have to reread it. 

That's to a large extent a personal issue- a lot of readers are either gonna not notice when TBP is making stuff up or, because it's definitely been enjoyed by people with far more physics knowledge than me, notice but not care. Apparently some people find it the reverse- by mixing in the made-up stuff with real stuff in the same way it makes it more plausible.

I might also just be wrong.  If scientists ever discover that you can amplify signals by bouncing them off the sun I'm gonna feel very silly aren't I.

[David Selig]

7 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

There is a case for arguing there's an element of sexism (or old-school gender stereotyping), especially in the third volume, but that's a whole other discussion!

This is putting it very mildly, the sexism in these books is really blatant. And I haven't even read the third which is apparently the worst in this aspect.

There is a significant subplot in the second book where

Spoiler

the main character imagines the perfect submissive girlfriend for himself and then abuses the powers granted to him to save the world from the alien invasion to find exactly such a woman and she gets guilt tripped into being his girlfriend after first being lied to what exactly was going on by the main character's flunkies. And this is presented as something romantic. The whole plotline is completely bizarre and not just offensive and dumb but an utter waste of pages plotwise.

One of the main characters in Book 1 was married but we never even learned the name of his wife even though he spent significant time at home while she was there.

As for the scientific plausibility of this book, it's always been funny to me when people claimed it's hard science fiction when the whole plot is based on blatantly violating the laws of nature.

Spoiler

The sophon is space magic explained in quantum physics technobabble which makes no sense whatsoever.

But that didn't bother me much. What bothered me was the really absurd premise of the plot of the first book where many scientists started committed suicide due to thier physics experiments showing weird and inconsitent results which disproved many of the established theories in the field of physics.

[House Cambodia]

2 hours ago, David Selig said:

space magic explained in quantum physics technobabble which makes no sense whatsoever

To those of us who grew up on Doctor Who, that's like a second language to us!

But as to your main point, it's fair to say Cixin Liu doesn't do women. But characterization generally, not just women is the weakest part of his writing.

And yet, whilst all the criticisms are justified, the primary antagonist in the first book is a young woman scientist in a man's world who has a strong character arc and compelling motivation driving it.

[IFR]

7 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Sure, not everything in his books was nailed-down scientific fact and some of it turned out to be bunkum, but if he ever got into the weeds it was via a progression that made sense (at least to me), and didn't contradict stuff we know to be true. Or (as in 2001) he did just go 'hey it's basically magic' and not go into it much. 

Clarke absolutely did this in 2001, and to an even greater extent in Childhood's End. The technology and science of the advanced species were examples of this - just like with Three Body Problem. The space magic approach tends to be common even among proficient writers of science fiction when attempteing to predict highly advanced technology or science.

[polishgenius]

5 hours ago, IFR said:

Clarke absolutely did this in 2001, and to an even greater extent in Childhood's End. The technology and science of the advanced species were examples of this

 

Clarke didn't spend pages describing the scientific details of the alien technology in 2001 though. Possibly he did in Childhood's end, I haven't read that book for decades (I think I've read it?), but generally in my experience when Clarke gets into the nitty gritty detail it's either real things or pure description (as in Rama, where he spends loads of time describing Rama but basically none speculating on the science beyond where it was relevant and understandable to the human crew).

[Zorral]

3 Body Problem: Game of Thrones creators on why they swapped dragons for aliens

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-68484524

Quote

The show's producers include Brad Pitt, Saltburn actress Rosamund Pike and Knives Out/ Glass Onion director Rian Johnson

 

[maarsen]

On 3/16/2024 at 11:17 AM, IFR said:

Clarke absolutely did this in 2001, and to an even greater extent in Childhood's End. The technology and science of the advanced species were examples of this - just like with Three Body Problem. The space magic approach tends to be common even among proficient writers of science fiction when attempting to predict highly advanced technology or science.

Just a reminder of the timeline of 2001 book and movie. The movie was based on Clarke's story The Sentinel. Kubrick liked the story and wanted to make it into a movie. Clarke and Kubrick wrote the screenplay and began to film it. Clarke then took the script and novelized it to come out with the movie but Kubrick was slow in filming all the bits and the book came out before the movie, leading everyone to assume Kubrick adapted the book.

[Werthead]

17 hours ago, maarsen said:

Just a reminder of the timeline of 2001 book and movie. The movie was based on Clarke's story The Sentinel. Kubrick liked the story and wanted to make it into a movie. Clarke and Kubrick wrote the screenplay and began to film it. Clarke then took the script and novelized it to come out with the movie but Kubrick was slow in filming all the bits and the book came out before the movie, leading everyone to assume Kubrick adapted the book.

There's also the interesting thing that in the book, that action happens at Saturn, with the Monolith located on Iapetus, because that was the original plan. Douglas Trumbull filmed test-footage of Saturn but they agreed it looked bad, so they changed the destination of Discovery to Jupiter surprisingly late on in shooting, and reshot any mention of Saturn to replace it with Jupiter.

I believe this happened late enough that Clarke had finished the book and it was locked in for publication, so he couldn't change it. For the sequel novels he said fuck it and set them at Jupiter like the films (consistency in the book series being pretty non-existent).

Trumbull was always annoyed about not being able to deliver Saturn, so he spent lots of his own time after 2001 wrapped getting it to the point where it looked good, where it then inspired him to make a whole film about Saturn, which became Silent Running.

[AncalagonTheBlack]

 

[Zorral]

3 Body Problem Is Not Afraid to Be TV

https://www.vulture.com/article/3-body-problem-review-netflix.html?

Quote

 

It’s easy to forget that before the post-prestige limited series, the five-episode season, and the beat-for-beat book adaptation, part of TV’s great pleasure was its shagginess. The ’90s and 2000s heyday of long seasons, still the status quo for network shows, relied on enormous collaboration, with lots of directors and writers, many ideas, and a combination of performances, styles, and narrative arcs that did not always coalesce into a single, coherent whole. Guest stars might disappear abruptly, or a suddenly shifting character development might be swiftly discarded. The mids were mid and they made the highs feel even higher. Palpable swings in quality were part of the fun; they gave TV a sense of daring and individuality rather than seamlessly extruded sameness.

This is why Netflix’s 3 Body Problem, helmed by Game of Thrones team DB Weiss and David Benioff as well as Alexander Woo, is such a treat in spite of its notable imperfections. Although it’s built on a very 2024 model of streaming television — big-deal book adaptation, eight-episode season, pedigreed production team, short list of credited writers — it feels like traditional TV, in both the best and most annoying interpretations of that idea. It is crammed full with ideas, moving quickly between elements that don’t always work together, and willing to take risks in order to keep the plot wheel spinning. It is occasionally transcendent, especially in its willingness to play fast and loose with the original text, adapting highly conceptual science fiction into embodied character arcs. It is occasionally disastrous, particularly in a few stunningly flat performances more appropriate for still photography than moving pictures. It has a sense of spectacle. It has a fondness for cheese. It’s definitely whitewashed, in a way that’s so lacking in defensiveness or apology it’s almost funny. It’s American-made TV! ....

 

 

[Zorral]

Review: ‘3 Body Problem’ Is a Galaxy-Brained Spectacle
The Netflix sci-fi adaptation has done its physics homework, even if it sometimes falls short on the humanities.
By James Poniewozik

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/arts/television/3-body-problem-netflix-review.html

Quote

 

.... It all suggests the working of an advanced power, not of the cuddly E.T. variety. What starts as a detective mystery, pursued by the rumpled intelligence investigator Clarence Da Shi (Benedict Wong), escalates to a looming war of the worlds. What the aliens want and what they might do to get it is unclear at first, but as Clarence intuits, “Usually when people with more advanced technology encounter people with more primitive technology, doesn’t work out well for the primitives.”

Most of the first season’s plot comes straight from Liu’s work. The biggest changes are in story structure and location. Liu’s trilogy, while wide-ranging, focused largely on Chinese characters and had specifically Chinese historical and political overtones. Benioff, Weiss and Woo have globalized the story, shifting much of the action to London, with a multiethnic cast. (Viewers interested in a more literal rendition of Liu’s story can watch last year’s stiff but thorough Chinese adaptation on Peacock.)

They’ve also given Liu’s heavy science a dose of the humanities. Liu is a brilliant novelist of speculative ideas, but his characters can read like figures from story problems. In the series, a little playful dialogue goes a long way toward leavening all the Physics 101.

So does casting. Wong puffs life into his generically hard-boiled gumshoe. Liam Cunningham (Davos Seaworth in “Thrones”) stands out as Thomas Wade, a sharp-tongued spymaster, as does Rosalind Chao as Ye Wenjie, an astrophysicist whose brutal experience in the Cultural Revolution makes her question her allegiance to humanity. Zine Tseng is also excellent as the young Ye.

More curious, if understandable, is the decision to shuffle and reconfigure characters from throughout Liu’s trilogy into a clique of five attractive Oxford-grad prodigies who carry much of the narrative: Jin Cheng (Jess Hong), a dogged physicist with personal ties to the dead-scientists case; Auggie Salazar (Eiza González), an idealistic nanofibers researcher; Saul Durand (Jovan Adepo), a gifted but jaded research assistant; Will Downing (Alex Sharp), a sweet-natured teacher with a crush on Jin; and Jack Rooney (John Bradley of “Thrones”), a scientist turned snack-food entrepreneur and the principal source of comic relief.

The writers manage to bump up Liu’s one-dimensional characterizations to two-ish, but the “Oxford Five,” with the exception of Jin, don’t feel entirely rounded. This is no small thing; in a fantastical series like “Thrones” or “Lost,” it is the memorable individuals — your Arya Starks and your Ben Linuses — who hold you through the ups and downs of the story.

The plot, however, is dizzying and the world-building immersive, and the reportedly galactic budget looks well and creatively spent on the screen. Take the virtual-reality scenes, through which “3 Body” gradually reveals its stakes and the aliens’ motives. Each character who dons the headset finds themselves in an otherworldly version of an ancient kingdom — China for Jin, England for Jack — which they are challenged to save from repeating cataclysms caused by the presence of three suns (hence the series’s title).

“3 Body” has a streak of techno-optimism even at its bleakest moments ...

 

 

[House Cambodia]

Are we talking about this yet? It's already dropped for me - will binge it tomorrow.

[Ran]

Just a note for folks using this thread to talk about the show, remember it is not marked spoilers, so all spoilers related to the shows should be hidden in spoiler tags.

Feel free to make a spoilers-marked thread if you wish.