On the issue of false accusations

[Tears of Lys]

Now, that's being brave, Spocky.  Some will make judgments about you for the mere fact that you were accused.  That's why I say I always withhold judgement until a thorough investigation  is done.  

Were there any repercussions for your accuser?   No one should be capable of ruining someone's life and just walking away.   

[Tears of Lys]

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Those consciously aware suffer eternally between hope and despair. 

That statement really resonated with me.  Well said.  

[Spockydog]

3 hours ago, Tears of Lys said:

Now, that's being brave, Spocky.  Some will make judgments about you for the mere fact that you were accused.  That's why I say I always withhold judgement until a thorough investigation  is done.  

Were there any repercussions for your accuser?   No one should be capable of ruining someone's life and just walking away.   

Thank you. There's a lot to unpack here. I'll probably get it off my chest in one big long word vomit (will obviously tag that shit for a whole bunch of reasons).

In the meantime I will say that mostly anyone who knows me will dismiss the idea of me being a rapist as simply absurd. I say mostly because it turns out one or two of my former friends are idiots, who, even though they know that I do not have a violent bone in my body, didn't even want to hear my side of the story.

Anyway, for me, being falsely accused of rape is just about the worst thing that can happen to a man. 

This thing will probably haunt me forever. If it wasn't the thought of what it would do to Chops, I am pretty sure I would have killed myself in the months after being arrested.

This bullshit stopped me in my tracks and turned me into a nervous wreck (still on the Sertraline). But then I woke up one afternoon last August, the sun was streaming through my window, and I thought, 'Fuck that crazy bitch.' And then I got up and started getting on with my life again.

I received an email from my solicitor just after Christmas, telling me that there would be no further action. The whole family went out for a slap up meal. And then I had to go to Edmonton nick to accept the caution for the weed the rozzers found growing in my bedroom. 

Edited April 10 by Spockydog

[HexMachina]

4 hours ago, Spockydog said:

It should be noted that I am probably suffering from some form of PTSD because of this.

In Barcelona recently, I met a woman at a plush social club event on the Friday night. We had a smoke, we hit it off, and we took a cab back to my hotel. It was only a five minute drive, but by the time we got to the hotel I had worked myself into a state of abject terror. What if this woman came up to my room and then made up shit about me? What if I get arrested for rape again? Nobody will believe me ever again. I seriously thought I was about to have another heart attack.

Anyway, as we pulled up at the hotel, I gave the driver 50 Euros, apologized to the extremely attractive woman who probably wanted to have sex with me, and fled.

As the cab drove away, I made sure to take a photo of the registration, and when I entered the hotel, I made a point of talking to the chap at the front desk just so they could testify that I arrived at the hotel alone.

I don't think I'm ever going get over this.

ETA: Although opening up about my experience could be the first step towards coming to terms with what happened to me.

I'm sorry for what you experienced, and for how its still affecting you now. Opening up about it is the first step - I'd encourage you to find a professional to help you process it properly and deal with these anxieties. You'd be shocked how much its probably affecting you even when you don't realise it.

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, Tears of Lys said:

Now, that's being brave, Spocky.  Some will make judgments about you for the mere fact that you were accused.[b]  That's why I say I always withhold judgement until a thorough investigation  is done.  [/b]

Were there any repercussions for your accuser?   No one should be capable of ruining someone's life and just walking away.   

I agree with this, but I will say that its difficult to put into practice. We had a situation at work where A accused B of sexual assault. Obviously it was handled by HR and 'confidential' but as with any office environment, gossip spreads like wildfire so everyone knew. Because I didn't know either party well  I had nothing to base any kind of judgment on, but even so, just the thought that it could have happened made me want to avoid B. I'm pleased to say I didn't allow myself that snap judgment, but I can understand the instinct to react in that way.

And I think if you've experienced what the accusation is, be in sexual assault, physical or verbal abuse, whatever, the instinct to make a snap judgment is likely to be even stronger than your average observer

[Spockydog]

Considering the physical impracticalities, even impossibilities, of her allegations, anyone who's ever tried to have missionary sex in the front seat of a Suzuki Vitara would have dismissed this woman's complaint in an instant.

Apparently, she has had previous 'incidents' with men, the exact nature of which I am unaware of. One of the shitty things about not being charged is we don't get to know exactly what she said, to see if there were any inconsistencies between what she told the police, and what she told my friends. She went to the police 12 days after the party. 

The detective who interviewed me, as he was walking me out of the station, said he was sorry we had met under such circumstances. He told me not to worry, that would likely be the end it. He said, in his opinion, the worst was over for me. He told me to go home and "try not to catastrophize".

Because of these comments, along with the exact same sentiment being expressed the the arresting officer, my mum wants to file a FOI with the Met to get all their case notes and internal communications on the case. The investigating DS, when issuing my caution, said this is my right.

My mum also wants to hire a private investigator to crawl up this woman's colon, in the hope of discovering why the fuck she would try to absolutely wreck the lives of three strangers. The opinion amongst my sister's friends who know her is that she's a proper weirdo.

Some days I agree about the PI, some days I just want to put it all behind me and forget it.

I'd definitely love to see the Met's case file though.

Anyway, I'm going to share the document I wrote after my ex-friend, the party host, called me to tell me what was going on. My family told me it was important to get my version of events down on paper, with as much detail, to keep it fresh in my mind in case the police came for me.

In spoilers, because brief sexually explicit detail.

Spoiler

I drove my sister, Laura, to the party. We arrived at approximately 8:30pm.

The plan was for us to share a cab, first to mine, and then on to my Mum’s, where Laura was staying the night.

Had my first beer. A bottle of Corona.

The vibe at the party was nice and relaxed. I met a lot of new people, including my accuser. We said hello to each other, but didn’t really chat until later on.

Just before 11pm, I had my second and final beer, and took a tiny amount of powdered MDMA.

Shortly after this, Laura wanted to go home. As I had just taken something, we said goodbye and she got in an Uber.

The MDMA gave me a nice mild buzz, and I danced for a bit in the gazebo and music room. My accuser was also dancing in there, but we didn’t engage in any conversation at that point.

After a while, the MDMA wore off, and I started to feel a bit tired and leggy. I remember being really thirsty, going into the kitchen, and drinking two big glasses of water.

At around 12:45, I sat down on the sofa in the room next to the kitchen, and tried to get myself set up on Uber. I’ve never used the service before so had to first download the app, and then create an account. This ultimately proved impossible due to patchy internet.

It was then that I started talking to my accuser. She sat next to me on the sofa. We chatted. She asked if I had a car outside, and if I was okay to drive. At this point, I felt completely sober. Two bottles of Corona hadn’t had much effect and the MDMA had worn off completely.

Against my better judgement, I agreed to give her a lift back to her home in Turnpike Lane.

We parked under a streetlight in front of her house. We sat in the car for a bit, chatting. She looked at pictures of my dog on my phone. She was sitting side saddle on the passenger seat, with her legs drawn up. She kept stroking my beard, and telling me how lovely I was.

Throughout our time together, she kept saying that she had a serious mistrust of men. She did not go into any detail, but it was clear she’d had some bad experiences.

So for my part, I just tried to be as gentlemanly as possible. I didn’t want to push anything.

We continued to chat. She wanted to know why I didn't have a girlfriend. I told her about my brother. 

And then she she kissed me, and I kissed her back. I fondled her breasts, and kissed them. I put my hand inside her underwear, and fondled her vagina. She put her left foot up on the car’s dashboard. I briefly performed oral sex on her.

She then invited me into her house. I asked who was inside. She told me just her teenage son. I told her that would be inappropriate and declined. She then asked my where I lived. I told her we couldn’t go back to mine because it would totally freak my brother out.

I said to her that if she wanted to see me again, she could get my number from Nige.

I drove away thinking we had a nice time. 

I arrived home around 2:40am.

-----------------

Her allegations were that we did everything listed above, but against her will. She also said I climbed across from the drivers seat and then raped her in the passenger seat.

 

 

Edited April 10 by Spockydog

[Spockydog]

6 hours ago, Tears of Lys said:

Some will make judgments about you for the mere fact that you were accused.

I don't care what those people think. And as for anyone who doubts a woman would make up such stories, go and have a look at the case of Eleanor Williams.

This fucking nutter attacked herself with a hammer to help substantiate her lies and men went to prison.

This case was of great comfort to me as I sat in CPS limbo, wondering why on earth a crazy woman had told a pack of lies about me. 

Edited April 11 by Spockydog

[Conflicting Thought]

17 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I don't care what those people think. And as for anyone who doubts a woman would make up such stories, go and have a look at the case of Eleanor Williams.

This fucking nutter attacked herself with a hammer to help substantiate her lies and men went to prison.

This case was of great comfort to me as I sat in CPS limbo, wondering why on earth a crazy woman had told a pack of lies about me. 

I at least dont doubt that this happens, and im sorry it happened to you. At the same time there are sooo many cases of piece of shit men that get away with abuse and rape and so many people say things like "i know this person, he is my firend, he would never do that", but they do it, all the time. And its fucked up, but if a ftiend of mine was accused i wouldnt know what to think, everyone has the capacity of doing something like that, every man is a potential abuser, and many are. Even tho they might seem to me like they would never do it. 

And you cant even trust in the justice system, thats why the concept of rape culture is so true. Men get away with it all the time, judges feel sorry for this men, and what about the women? How many women have to live knowing there abuser is free, having families and living their lives, while the women are left to fend for themselves. With people harrasing them if the go public, and they (sometimes) go public cuz is the last recourse the have, the justice system is against them, society at large is against them

[Spockydog]

15 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

everyone has the capacity of doing something like that

This is soooooo wrong.

Just re-read your post. Are you claiming that every single man has the capacity to be a rapist? 

Edited April 11 by Spockydog

[Tears of Lys]

15 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

This is soooooo wrong.

Just re-read your post. Are you claiming that every single man has the capacity to be a rapist? 

Yes, that is what he/she said - in the same way everyone is capable of being a murderer if the situation is just right.

It's a very depressing attitude, but I guess it's true.  But, certainly, it's extremely unlikely with certain folk.     

[DMC]

I think a better way to put it is we can never 100% know what anyone is capable of.  That’s importantly different than saying everyone is capable of such acts.

[Conflicting Thought]

51 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think a better way to put it is we can never 100% know what anyone is capable of.  That’s importantly different than saying everyone is capable of such acts.

yeah, this is a better way to say it.

my woman friends are always telling me horrible shit that men have done to them. men that seem to be one way end up being disgusting people, and its so common.

every woman that i have asked about experiences with harassment from men have multiple stories of  strangers and from people they know that have SA them, or harassed in the street or at parties,etc. 

and we do live in a patriarchal society where rape culture is rampant, and we (men) all have this in us to different degrees. many of us would never SA someone, but even that is not always true, like when i was in school and in college many parties ended up with drunk women being abused, like that was part of the culture back then, and many men have come to realized today that the did SA somebody when at the time they didnt think they where doing that. 

edited to say that i think that from a woman point of view, all men are indeed potential rapists. that is the sad reallity we have made for them.

Edited April 11 by Conflicting Thought

[Spockydog]

9 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

like when i was in school and in college many parties ended up with drunk women being abused, like that was part of the culture back then

*vomits*

No, this was never, ever part of mine, or my friend's, culture.

*vomits again*

 

[TrackerNeil]

On 4/8/2024 at 12:06 PM, Conflicting Thought said:

Always belive victims first.

I take a different approach. In my view, context always matters, so I take accusations in context. That means I consider the accusation, the accuser, the accused, and everything I can find out that relates. 

Also, it's rarely wrong to wait for evidence. Really.

[Maithanet]

Speaking generally, I feel like a lot of this issue comes down to power imbalances. 

Young men are usually bigger and stronger than young women, and this means that if a situation comes to violence, a woman is likely to be hurt or killed.  Women know this, and quite understandably seek to avoid that situation, which can often lead to sexual assault occurring via perceived rather than explicit threats.  Usually these crimes happen in private settings, with little/no evidence beyond individual testimony.  In addition, women know that we have a patriarchal society where a "boys will be boys" attitude is often used to excuse a great many unacceptable behaviors.  This all combines to create a society where sexual assault is sadly very common and very rarely punished. 

Most people are disgusted and outraged about the prevalence of sexual assault and rape, and one solution is to have a default assumption of trusting the victims of assault.  In most cases, this is absolutely the right approach, and can help protect victims and discourage future assault cases.  However, it is an imperfect solution, and there are cases where false accusations are made and innocent people have their lives/careers ruined with very little ability to defend themselves.

Which circles back to the issue of power imbalances.  If we create a society where men can say "look what she was wearing!" as a defense for sexual assault, then we should expect sexual violence to be very common.  Some men will exploit this huge power imbalance knowing there will almost assuredly be no consequences.  However, if we create a society where we genuinely trust the person reporting sexual assault with minimal/no evidence*, then that would represent a power imbalance as well.  Some women would certainly exploit that knowing there will almost assuredly be no consequences.  

I understand I have not made any useful recommendations on how to solve this problem.  I think the best that we can do is adopt a "trust, but verify" attitude when cases of sexual assault and rape are reported.  But basically no matter what, the criminal justice system is going to make some horrible errors and some people's lives will be ruined, because that's what the criminal justice system does.  

* I do not think this has actually occurred anywhere, ever. 

[TrackerNeil]

I think the question should not be "Whom do we believe?" but "How do we handle accusations?"

Advocating for those we believe to be victims is fine, but when it comes to institutional responses, we have to make sure we're not replacing adjudication with advocacy. Specifically, I am thinking of college tribunals, which often run according to rules that bear little resemblance to due process. Respondents are often denied counsel, are not informed of the specific charges until the day of the hearing, are not permitted to cross-examine witnesses, and may not present refuting evidence. These sorts of hearings are clearly intended to produce claimant-friendly outcomes, which sounds good, but can have unintended consequences.

Here's one of those consequences.

Quote

 

In a decision scrutinizing how colleges investigate sexual assault allegations, Connecticut's highest court ruled Friday that a former Yale student is not immune from a defamation lawsuit by a fellow student who was exonerated in criminal court after she accused him of rape.

The Connecticut court ruled 7-0 that because he had fewer rights to defend himself in university proceedings than he would in criminal court, the rape accuser can't benefit fully from immunity granted to witnesses in criminal proceedings.

 

Yale might have figured it was doing claimants a solid by tilting the playing field in their favor, but it didn't work out that way for this clamaint. So we have to keep in mind that what sounds good may not actually do good.

Edited April 11 by TrackerNeil

[Spockydog]

50 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

However, if we create a society where we genuinely trust the person reporting sexual assault with minimal/no evidence*, then that would represent a power imbalance as well.  Some women would certainly exploit that knowing there will almost assuredly be no consequences.  

My accuser was wearing an ankle length dress. Presumably she gave it to the police. I do not know if she claimed I used a condom, but seeing as the interviewing officer asked if their forensic team would find any of my semen in my car, I'm guessing she told them I didn't. 

Of course, my car didn't have any semen on the seats. Neither did her dress, or I wouldn't be a free man today. 

So this woman was able to completely fuck up my life with absolutely no evidence. None whatsoever. 

I asked the interviewing officer what their threshhold of credulity was when deciding to wreck a man's life. I mean, my lawyer told me the entire case was a joke. He jokingly asked if I had unscrewed my legs before clambering over the handbrake and gearstick to rape her. The lawyer said there wasn't a chance in hell that I'd be charged. So why was I even arrested? 

And now that the police are taking no further action, I have no way of exonerating myself. 

And this woman just gets to carry on with her life. 

 

Edited April 11 by Spockydog

[BigFatCoward]

16 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Because of these comments, along with the exact same sentiment being expressed the the arresting officer, my mum wants to file a FOI with the Met to get all their case notes and internal communications on the case. The investigating DS, when issuing my caution, said this is my right.

My mum also wants to hire a private investigator to crawl up this woman's colon, in the hope of discovering why the fuck she would try to absolutely wreck the lives of three strangers. The opinion amongst my sister's friends who know her is that she's a proper weirdo.

Some days I agree about the PI, some days I just want to put it all behind me and forget it.

 

 

I can't imagine how this felt, and I fully understand the desire for justice/revenge, but its not a good look for someone accused of this to then begin 'targeting' the alleged victim.  if you can, let it go, i think healing comes faster that way. 

having read your story it sounds like it was a residential street in a busy part of London, with the amount of ring doorbells now and CCTV, i'd be amazed if there wasn't corroborating evidence for your story if it had been needed (maybe this was why the case was dropped).  

Pleased that the investigating officers sounded like actual human beings with a bit of empathy, shame they stole your weed though. 

Edited April 11 by BigFatCoward

[Spockydog]

16 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Having read your story it sounds like it was a residential street in a busy part of London, with the amount of ring doorbells now and CCTV, i'd be amazed if there wasn't corroborating evidence for your story if it had been needed (maybe this was why the case was dropped).  

This is interesting. I'm going to file that FOI and find out why the case was dropped. And if it is something like you describe, something that exonerates me, I am going to walk into Wood Green Police Station and file a complaint of my own. 

One of my true friends, when I told him what had happened to me, asked if I had a dashcam in the car. 

A few years back, one of his brother's footballer friends had something similar happen to him. A woman claimed he had raped her in his car. But when the police arrested him, he was able to produce dash cam audio that proved she was an enthusiastically willing participant in the sex. She got done for wasting police time. 

This is why I now have a dashcam in my car. 

Edited April 11 by Spockydog

[Spockydog]

33 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Pleased that the investigating officers sounded like actual human beings with a bit of empathy, shame they stole your weed though. 

Honestly, they were great. You probably know them.

The arresting officer came into my room and pointed at the tent, "What's in there?"

"Medicine," I said.

I told the him I had started growing weed for Chops during Covid. I think he actually had a chat with a colleague about maybe turning a blind eye. But his mate advised against it.

Anyway, it was he who told me that the law had been changed, and that Chops should now be able to get a prescription.

As I said, they treated me with the utmost dignity and respect when I was accused of the most horrible crime. I'm very grateful for it.

Edited April 11 by Spockydog