On the issue of false accusations

[IFR]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Well then, you should know this is entirely a man made problem.  Unless, of course, as the boomers used to say, you're part of the problem not the solution?  You know, like the trad wives on insta making a living by lecturing other women to be subservient, yaddayaddayadda?

I think we've taken this particular discussion as far as it will go. I respect your opinion, and you can take my suggestion or not as you wish.

I encourage others to please engage in moderate language even if not everyone else does. Otherwise I suppose BigFatCoward will have predicted the outcome of this thread correctly, and I apologize to the mods for the inconvenience of dealing with things getting out of hand.

I do hold out hope though that this is something that can reasonably be discussed.

[Conflicting Thought]

Maybe im slow but what exactly do you want to discus. i dont get what the discussion is supossed to be about.

Like yes false acvusations are bad...so what then? So far people seem to think that believing victims is the right thing to do. So i dont understand what is the point of it.

[A wilding]

The key issue is the ratios.

What is the proportion or women who have been raped or otherwise abused to men who have been falsely accused? What is the proportion of women who go in daily fear of rape or other abuse to men going in daily fear of being falsely accused? What is the proportion of women who every day take precautions to avoid rape or other abuse (hint, that is close to 100% of women) to men who every day take precautions against being falsely accused?

Personally I consider anyone who says those ratios are not wildly skewed are either ignorant young men or are arguing in bad faith. And this has to colour any discussion of false accusations.

[Week]

Please, no more caping for #notallmen. The problem is #99percentmen. 

Much more worthwhile topics would be ...

-- Rape kit backlog https://www.rainn.org/articles/addressing-rape-kit-backlog

-- Most perpetrators do not go to jail https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

[IFR]

2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Maybe im slow but what exactly do you want to discus. i dont get what the discussion is supossed to be about.

Like yes false acvusations are bad...so what then? So far people seem to think that believing victims is the right thing to do. So i dont understand what is the point of it.

Perspectives. You've given your perspective, and it's welcome, but there are other perspectives, and I welcome them too.

As I said before, my personal issue is one of cognitive dissonance: two contradictory thoughts held simultaneously. I find that perspectives outside my own sometimes help navigate these issues.

[Werthead]

On 4/8/2024 at 4:20 PM, IFR said:

I also bring attention another high profile case: that of Chris Avellonee. Two women - Karissa Barrows and Kelly Bristol - accused Avellone of sexual assault on Twitter.

Others on Twitter corroborated their story. 

Karissa Barrows even gave an interview with Kotaku (here) and describes her encounter.

Warning, this involves disturbing predatory sexual conduct.

The case was dismissed and Avellone sued these two women and later won a 7 figured lawsuit. The women also had to make a public statement retracting their accusations.

Here is the Forbes article.

Like Gatt, Avellone was immediately blacklisted from his industry. 

The Avellone situation is interesting.

It's clear that Avellone's stock in the industry had already dropped precipitously. He was not well-regarded at Obsidian in the several years leading up to these accusations, and several attempts for him to fully take charge of a new game consistently failed, with him being downgraded to a guest writer. He got a reputation as a "human Kickstarter goal," since many games had "Chris Avellone will write a quest!" as a goal during videogames' Kickstarter boom of about ten years ago. There were grumblings for some time before the accusations serviced of unprofessional behaviour, though more along the lines of partying at conventions and getting constantly interviewed and generally engaging in a lot of PR, sometimes out of keeping with the scope of his actual contributions to the project, and doing more PR than actual work.

I think that led people to be very ready to believe any other stories of impropriety against him.

Regardless of that, I do think it is very notable that every gaming site under the sun covered the initial accusations against Avellone and his blacklisting from the industry, but only Kotaku (IIRC) amongst mainstream sites covered his subsequent legal victory. Many of the other sites refused to cover that end of the story, and I know a couple refused to answer queries about why they joined in on the dogpile and not on the resolution (Polygon and Rock Paper Shotgun refused to comment on it, which is odd given the enthusiasm with which they covered the start of the story).

It is worth noting that on the same day as Avellone's story breaking, the stories about Cas Anvar broke and that story was much more serious and believable, given that over 20 women accused him of impropriety at events going back several years, and apparently spanned people he'd worked with in the industry, attendees of conventions, professional voice actors and possibly staffers on The Expanse, so in that case it was clear that he had committed wrongdoing.

2 hours ago, A wilding said:

The key issue is the ratios.

What is the proportion or women who have been raped or otherwise abused to men who have been falsely accused? What is the proportion of women who go in daily fear of rape or other abuse to men going in daily fear of being falsely accused? What is the proportion of women who every day take precautions to avoid rape or other abuse (hint, that is close to 100% of women) to men who every day take precautions against being falsely accused?

Personally I consider anyone who says those ratios are not wildly skewed are either ignorant young men or are arguing in bad faith. And this has to colour any discussion of false accusations.

There was a BBC News radio report many years ago (I think close to ten years ago) and police and legal services seemed to pull a figure that they believed the number of false accusations in the case of rape, sexual assault and harassment was something like 1 in 16, or for every falsified case they had 15 genuine ones.

I have zero idea on what they were basing that on (definitely not convictions!), but that still seems to fall on the "generally believe the victim until evidence proves otherwise" side of things.

 

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, IFR said:

Perspectives. You've given your perspective, and it's welcome, but there are other perspectives, and I welcome them too.

As I said before, my personal issue is one of cognitive dissonance: two contradictory thoughts held simultaneously. I find that perspectives outside my own sometimes help navigate these issues.

but how can you resolve that coginitve dissonance? there will always be people that falsely accuse others. and SA will never end, specially when men (and sometimes women) put their efforts on the miniscule fraction of false accusers.

why this two things seemingly occupie the same level of importance in your mind? i think thats where the belive victims comes from, because the vast mayority of cases are real, and sometimes (or most times) this "argument" of false accusations serves to distract from the real issues. i mean its bad when it happens, but it doesnt happen that often, and its much more common that abusers/rapists get away with victimizing people

[Larry of the Lawn]

 

And then there are the false accusations of false accusations.  

Well my girlfriend had her children taken away from her and given to their father because one of the kids reported him for abuse.  There was a "good touch/bad touch" unit at school, and the child told a teacher that she was being touched inappropriately.  My girlfriend sued to modify the custody arrangement to limit him to supervised visits only and mandatory therapy.

In the meantime, child protective services interviewed the child, who wouldn't talk to a stranger about this. The report came back "unfounded" and he got a hotshot lawyer to say that my gf spent the last ten years subtly brainwashing the kids into falsely believing they'd been abused.

There is zero evidence of this other than the father's repeated assertions.  Plenty of evidence from other parties that he has engaged in similar behavior before. But this backwards-ass county family Court system loved the narrative of a woman falsely accusing an ex.  

So the kids are now with their potential abuser.  My gf only gets to see them during supervised visits.  It's been hell for her.  

[IFR]

2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

but how can you resolve that coginitve dissonance? there will always be people that falsely accuse others. and SA will never end, specially when men (and sometimes women) put their efforts on the miniscule fraction of false accusers.

why this two things seemingly occupie the same level of importance in your mind? i think thats where the belive victims comes from, because the vast mayority of cases are real, and sometimes (or most times) this "argument" of false accusations serves to distract from the real issues. i mean its bad when it happens, but it doesnt happen that often, and its much more common that abusers/rapists get away with victimizing people

I cannot uncouple myself from the idea that the likely victim and the unlikely victim hold equal regard to me. I suppose for me the unlikely victim is "likely enough" that I cannot simply disregard them.

It is perhaps influenced by personal experience, where I know both types of victims. I responded appropriately to the likely victim, and very inappropriately to the unlikely victim, and I do feel guilty about it.

[Mentat]

A very good friend of mine was accused by his partner and mother of his child of psychological abuse. There were no witnesses to this abuse since, according to her, it would only happen behind closed doors when they were alone or alone with their daughter (who is a small child). My friend denied everything, and claimed that the accusation was simply part of the strategy in the custody dispute over their daughter. Ultimately it came down to a 'he said, she said' case. Four psychologists were called in as expert witnesses, of which three sided with my friend and one with his partner. Ultimately, the judge sided with my friend's partner. My friend got sentenced with community service and a restraining order, and lost the custody dispute. I don't think I agree with the sentencing, given there was no evidence beyond conflicting testimony, but it was not my call to make.

I've known my friend since I was a teenager (I'm now 45), and I believe I know him well enough to trust what he says is the truth and disregard these accusations as false. Of course, I can't know with a complete certainty. I've done my best to support him and comfort him in what I know are very hard times for him, regardless.

False accusations and miscarriages of justice have been around forever (the ninth commandment says Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour). It most certainly goes both ways, though. True accusations not being believed can be just as much of a problem (or more of one, if it happens more frequently).

I also have no good solution to the problem, but I think getting involved via social media in cases where we really don't have any background knowledge is not helping. If two people give conflicting accounts of events I was not a witness to, I'm not aquainted with either of them and it's not my duty, job or responsibility to resolve the issue or conflict... then the correct response might simply be saying "I don't know. I don't know these people and I wasn't there" and letting the conflict be resolved through whatever channels it is meant to be.   

[A wilding]

13 hours ago, Werthead said:

There was a BBC News radio report many years ago (I think close to ten years ago) and police and legal services seemed to pull a figure that they believed the number of false accusations in the case of rape, sexual assault and harassment was something like 1 in 16, or for every falsified case they had 15 genuine ones.

I have zero idea on what they were basing that on (definitely not convictions!), but that still seems to fall on the "generally believe the victim until evidence proves otherwise" side of things.

That would be the police and legal services that have a fair number of sexual offenders in their own ranks, that have been widely accused of often failing to take rape seriously, and that manage to obtain a conviction for about 1 - 3% of rapes reported to them.

[Ser Lany]

One of the problems is confusing "withdrawing a complaint" with "false accusations" 

*by assault, I mean both physical and sexual

A lot of women withdraw complaints of assault, especially by  partner, for a variety of reasons, including fear. 

Men then use this as proof the accusations were false. 

When you look at the number of actual false accusations, it is very hard to see which were truly false and which were withdrawn for other reasons.

I won't lie, this is a very personal issue for me. My sister's husband was abusive and she never followed through on several complaints against him. She finally did leave him and file for divorce and he killed her. It's not a unique story.

I wish we had some way of better protecting people, especially women and children. I can't think of one short of not allowing the withdraw of complaints and that could be worse for many (I think a lot wouldn't make that initial call that stops the current round of abuse)

In order to protect the most, we have to believe the claims, and accept that a few will abuse the system with false claims. That is the price of living in the world we do.

Edited April 10 by Ser Lany

[The Big Stink]

Let's also not forget that countless Black Men have been unjustly prosecuted for false allegations. 

 

There is a reason the Emmet Till story resonates. It happens every day.

[Spockydog]

I used to be in the Believe All Women camp, until a stranger I met at a friends party went to the police and told them I'd raped her. 

I've been through some bad shit in my life, but this was the single worst experience of my life. I came *this* close to topping myself. 

And here's the thing, what she told the police I did is virtually impossible. And even though not a single police officer thought I was guilty, they had no choice but to arrest me, take my phone and car away, and keep me in a horrible limbo for the best part of eighteen months (I was released from bail after about two weeks). 

Of course, the police took no further action, but the stigma will never leave me. I lost a bunch of lifetime friends and I have regular fantasies about my accuser getting done by the police and sent to prison herself. 

My mum wants her dead. 

Edited April 10 by Spockydog

[TheLastWolf]

28 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I used to be in the Believe All Women camp, until a stranger I met at a friends party went to the police and told them I'd raped her. 

I've been through some bad shit in my life, but this was the single worst experience of my life. I came *this* close to topping myself. 

And here's the thing, what she told the police I did is virtually impossible. And even though not a single police officer thought I was guilty, they had no choice but to arrest me, take my phone and car away, and keep me in a horrible limbo for the best part of eighteen months (I was released from bail after about two weeks). 

Of course, the police took no further action, but the stigma will never leave me. I lost a bunch of lifetime friends and I have regular fantasies about my accuser getting done by the police and sent to prison herself. 

My mum wants her dead. 

I just watched Vinterberg's The Hunt, and damn! That's sick. I can understand if it was a kid but an adult?

As for the OP, Murphy's Law exists and we are a scummy species (bell curve) with the ability to shed conditioning and revert to a bestial state in no time. At the same time capable of acts of impossible beauty. Same darn homo sapiens. Those consciously aware suffer eternally between hope and despair. 

This time it's an inverted case of boy crying wolf so nothing can be done. The masses tend to believe the victim always, since almost always it's true. Can't expect the general public to peruse the minor details rationally and impartially, beholden to "innocent until proven otherwise".

 

Edited April 10 by TheLastWolf

[HexMachina]

When we are talking about 'larger' accusations, i.e. Those which make the news, either because of the nature of the crime or the identity of the accused/accuser, I think a lot of the blame for snap judgments lies on the fact that media outlets or individuals with a large social media presence are reporting on the story too soon, before they have a lot of facts. I know there have been times where I've read such articles and come away thinking, okay I know what this person is accused of but know nothing about whats alleged to have happened. Which is fine, to an extent. There are often valid reasons information is withheld. But until a cohesive story can be pulled together thats been verified I think it can be irresponsible for the media to run these stories. And I'm sure there are exceptions to that rule but in general, that is the attitude I try to take these days - not to make a snap judgment until I have the information to actually do so.

Wh

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, The Big Stink said:

Let's also not forget that countless Black Men have been unjustly prosecuted for false allegations. 

To Kill a Mockingbird and 12 Angry Men (that kid looked Italian though)

Edited April 10 by TheLastWolf

[Derfel Cadarn]

I think identities should be secret, at least until the trial (if any). I’m guessing once a trial has started, the identities of famous people will come out anyway. 
 

 

[Spockydog]

40 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I think identities should be secret, at least until the trial (if any).

Absolutely this. In my case, I was lucky that I didn't have a job to lose. 

When the police came for me, the arresting officer treated me with courtesy and respect. He came into the house, and as he watched me get dressed he told me that, in his view, the worst of my experience would be over that day. He said he wasn't going to handcuff me, and my neighbours would just think I was getting into an uber or something. He said I'd have a day in the cells, an interview that night, and then that would most likely be it.

When I got home that night, I was the talk of the street Whatsapp. So the next morning, I knocked on my neighbour's door and told her why the police had come and lifted my car off the street. She was great. Invited me in for a cup of tea and held me when I broke down in tears. I've lived on this street for twelve years. My neighbours know me. So I guess it was easier for them to believe that I wasn't capable of such a thing.

Incidentally, I got my car back within a week or so.

Edited April 10 by Spockydog

[Spockydog]

It should be noted that I am probably suffering from some form of PTSD because of this.

In Barcelona recently, I met a woman at a plush social club event on the Friday night. We had a smoke, we hit it off, and we took a cab back to my hotel. It was only a five minute drive, but by the time we got to the hotel I had worked myself into a state of abject terror. What if this woman came up to my room and then made up shit about me? What if I get arrested for rape again? Nobody will believe me ever again. I seriously thought I was about to have another heart attack.

Anyway, as we pulled up at the hotel, I gave the driver 50 Euros, apologized to the extremely attractive woman who probably wanted to have sex with me, and fled.

As the cab drove away, I made sure to take a photo of the registration, and when I entered the hotel, I made a point of talking to the chap at the front desk just so they could testify that I arrived at the hotel alone.

I don't think I'm ever going get over this.

ETA: Although opening up about my experience could be the first step towards coming to terms with what happened to me.

Edited April 10 by Spockydog