On the issue of false accusations

[IFR]

I was reading an article on Joseph Gatt, who played Thenn Warg on Game of Thrones.

The article is here.

In 2022 the actor was arrested for alleged correspondence of a sexual nature with a minor. I remember reading this when it happened. It was all over the news. If you googled "Game of Thrones", his arrest would pop up near the top. The media lavished attention on this.

Very recently, the real story came out, and it is an unbelievable miscarriage of justice. The article is worth reading, but here is a brief summary.

The boyfriend of one of the sisters of the perpetrator (that is, the minor and previously alleged victim) purchased a Cameo video of Gatt for the perpetrator. The perpetrator then contacted Gatt on instagram and Gatt "responded in a manner that was wholly appropriate and consistent with typical celebrity-fan exchanges."

The perpetrator then through Snapchat fabricated conversations with Gatt of a sexual nature. One of her sisters saw these conversations, took a photo of them and sent them to the police.

Here's where the miscarriage of justice comes in, as per the allegations Gatt makes in his 40 million dollars lawsuit.

- The police didn't take measures to verify the authenticity of the correspondence.

- A condition of his bail was that he was prohibitted from making a public statements.

- A private investigator Gatt hired found evidence that the conversations were manufactured, and "the forensic investigator was not allowed to present his findings in court and that the investigator and actor were threatened with jail time if they made the findings public or spoke publicly about the district attorney's office or Brunson."

Gatt states that this all destroyed his career and he was labelled a serial pedophile.

--

I also bring attention another high profile case: that of Chris Avellonee. Two women - Karissa Barrows and Kelly Bristol - accused Avellone of sexual assault on Twitter.

Others on Twitter corroborated their story. 

Karissa Barrows even gave an interview with Kotaku (here) and describes her encounter.

Warning, this involves disturbing predatory sexual conduct.

Quote

[Karissa] said she first met Avellone at a hotel bar meetup with industry friends at a 2012 convention, when he was working at Obsidian, the studio he co-founded. “He threw up his Obsidian credit card in the air and said ‘drinks on me,’ and he just started buying drinks for everybody,” she said. “Every time mine was gone, Chris was already back with one or two more for whoever was out, constantly just going back and forth. I remember refusing him, just being like ‘I’m good, I don’t need anymore, I probably shouldn’t drink anymore,’ and he’d be like, ‘No that’s fine, come on, let’s get you another drink.’”

Karissa said the alcohol hit her very fast, and eventually her two friends and Avellone decided to help her back to her hotel room. “Much of this I don’t recall except for a few moments,” she said. “I remember we were standing up at some point, I remember my two friends standing there at one point, and I remember this fairly vividly: Chris grabbed my face and started to kiss me. Didn’t ask, just went for it.” She said that at some point her friends left, heading down the hallway to the elevator just out of eyeshot. One later told her after she came forward that they had tried repeatedly to get Avellone to leave with them, she said.

“I was just kind of hanging my head there because I was feeling more self-conscious than anything,” Karissa said. “The biggest moment of clarity during this whole thing which came back to me later—again, things have come back to me in pieces—the thing I remember most clearly is when he started to undo my pants and put his hand down into them, I told him, ‘This is not a good idea.’ I think he paused for a moment, because I don’t think he was expecting me to say that, and I think the only reason I was able to say that was because I was on my period at the time.”

“He’s fucking disgusting, but he did not rape me,” she said. “He assaulted me, 100 percent, but I stopped him.”

The case was dismissed and Avellone sued these two women and later won a 7 figured lawsuit. The women also had to make a public statement retracting their accusations.

Here is the Forbes article.

Like Gatt, Avellone was immediately blacklisted from his industry. 

These are two high profile instances, but there is a larger issue at hand, and often involving people without the means to exonerate themselves as these two have (although to what extent they are able to repair their reputation remains in question).

I introduce these cases for discussion because this complicates the issue of how we as the public should respond to accusations when we do not know what actually happened. In both of these cases, simply based on the initally released information, the two victims (Gatt and Avellone) appeared very guilty. And yet there was more to it.

What do you think?

[BigFatCoward]

I think this thread will be shut down pretty quickly. 

[IFR]

5 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I think this thread will be shut down pretty quickly. 

Maybe. I hope that's not the case. I've thus far had pretty good experiences here in discussions of sensitive issues where people were able to engage respectfully and give their perspectives without inflammatory dialogue.

This seems like a legitimate issue to address, in my mind.

We'll see.

Edited April 8 by IFR

[IFR]

I will give my perspective to perhaps aid discussion.

My reaction when I read these stories is to reflexively condemn the alleged perpetrators. This is for a couple of reasons. First, perhaps it's social conditioning, or perhaps something else is going on, but I find I'm often cynical of the motivation of people in their interactions, and so when I hear about predatory behavior it seems believable. A second reason is that it feels wrong to me to disbelieve someone else's experience. The idea of being put into the position of someone who is a victim of such a violation and then having people doubt me makes me ill.

This is a strong perspective on my part.

On the other hand, I'm forced to reckon that the other side of this being a cynical world is that people can unjustly utilize victimhood for the purpose of predation on others.

These are two opposed points and they both produce a visceral reaction in me. It's very hard to reconcile them.

And so for me the answer to my own question is I don't know. Perhaps a discussion can provide illumination to resolve this dilemma to some extent. Perhaps not.

Anyway, that's where I'm at.

Edited April 8 by IFR

[Conflicting Thought]

Meh, i dont get why this is worth a thread. Its simple, the vast mayority of the cases (where a woman accuses a man of SA)are true, at the same time there will always exist people who take advantage of people or fabricate false acusations. But this in no way changes my perspective of always believing victims cuz they almost never get to win something by doing that, and there are allot more examples of victims getting bullied, ostracized, and never getting justice.

So yeah, the examples you provided are horrible, but it doesnt change the way i aproche this.

 

Always belive victims first.

Edited April 8 by Conflicting Thought

[Tears of Lys]

I would say believe the victim and investigate appropriately before anyone makes things public.  Unfortunately, the last part is harder than it seems in today's world.  

[Zorral]

Ya, even this stuff is prevalant in numbers this event above is not (though with AI EVERYBODY no matter whom can and will be victimized).

These actions have been given, so far, what may be called fairly, a muted response in our local media.  Most likely because 1) media attention will, as we know, spark ever more men to do this; 2) attempts to honestly measure just how prevalant this has gotten.

Men punching random women in NYC: A desperate last gasp of the male rage fueling MAGA
Random NYC attacks are an extreme manifestation of men feeling entitled to women's time and attention

https://www.salon.com/2024/04/08/men-punching-random-women-in-nyc-a-desperate-last-gasp-of-the-male-rage-fueling-maga/

 

[IFR]

Everyone, thank for your perpectives on this sensitive issue.

I was uncertain whether I should make this thread at all, but it truly is an issue of cognitive dissonance for me, and it's not an issue easily discussed.

I appreciate all the contributions so far. And I hope it can continue in this manner.

[Altherion]

It's an old problem and one well known enough to warrant an explicit statement in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 11 of the latter states:

Quote

Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

The presumption of innocence also exists in most national codes... but of course it's not possible to make private institutions to wait years for the decision of a court. Unless they happen to be led by extremely principled individuals or people who are personally invested in the welfare of the accused, most of today's institutions care about money and their public image. In that regard, it is completely irrelevant whether somebody accused is innocent or guilty; the question is whether they are worth protecting or it's cheaper to abandon them. The answer is usually the latter... but there are exceptions.

[DireWolfSpirit]

2 hours ago, IFR said:

 

- A private investigator Gatt hired found evidence that the conversations were manufactured, and "the forensic investigator was not allowed to present his findings in court a.......

Why were the investigators not allowed to present those findings in court?

[IFR]

22 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Why were the investigators not allowed to present those findings in court?

I don't know more about the case than is published. That article is the most in depth on this case I could find. In the article Gatt alleges that the district attorney had a personal bias against him, and furthermore, a personal relationship to a key witness and carried out "unconstitutional" policies.

Quoted from the article:

Quote

The actor later hired a private investigator and alleges that Brunson [the district attorney] attempted to have his bail revoked and that the district attorney's office prevented Gatt and the investigator from presenting their findings on the investigation's flaws in court.

If someone else is more familiar with the details, then perhaps they can provide an answer.

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Men punching random women in NYC: A desperate last gasp of the male rage fueling MAGA
Random NYC attacks are an extreme manifestation of men feeling entitled to women's time and attention

https://www.salon.com/2024/04/08/men-punching-random-women-in-nyc-a-desperate-last-gasp-of-the-male-rage-fueling-maga/

Something slightly similar to happened a work colleague of mine last week. She was driving and was brake-tested by the car in front. She had to swerve onto the pavement and stopped the car. The male driver - a total stranger - got out, ran up to her open car window and tried to punch her in the face (she thought he was going to talk to her so didn't do the window up), and got in a glancing blow. Fortunately a van pulled up and the driver got out and chased the guy off. Also, not being the brightest spark in the box, he did this with his number plates on full display, so the police were informed and arrested the guy. They're still trying to fathom a motive or it was just some harassing of a woman for having the temerity to drive a car down the road. Very weird and of course dangerous.

My friend's a part-time bodybuilder in excellent shape, but she was shocked by the sheer randomness of the attack.

Edited April 8 by Werthead

[Knight Of Winter]

Yeah, it's an unfortunate conundrum: that we can't establish an universal and fair principle on how to treat both Joseph Gatts of this world and Bill Cosbys of this world, until we figure for certain which is which. One deserve utmost condemnation and ostracization (in addition to legal punishment), other sympathy and support - how how to tell them apart...well, it beats me.

Like pretty much everyone here, I'm inclined to believe accuser(s) first, if nothing else due to the fact that vast majority of accusations are legitimate and correct. And child molesters and rapists, most/all of us will agree, deserve all of societal repercussions they get - such is the level of abhorrence of their crimes and severity of damage they caused. With that said, this approach can't be always good. "We'll just destroy your life first, and if you later turn out to be innocent - then tough luck, buddy" principle can't just sit right to anyone with a sense of fairness and justice.

And yes, I don't have any kind of grand solution in mind - perhaps all we can do is to pick between perhaps good, but imperfect choices that will occasionally produce bad results. Perhaps that's the best we can do - and perhaps I'm wrong and there's something I'm not seeing here.  

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Knight Of Winter said:

I don't have any kind of grand solution in mind - perhaps all we can do is to pick between perhaps good, but imperfect choices that will occasionally produce bad results. Perhaps that's the best we can do - and perhaps I'm wrong and there's something I'm not seeing here. 

Men as a whole,  demanding men as a whole behave as decent whole human beings, instead of predatory, whiney, mean, abusive babies who insist women, all women, must all cater to their every little feefee and whim, is a good place to begin.

Edited April 9 by Zorral

[IFR]

48 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Men as a whole,  demanding men as a whole behave as decent whole human beings, instead of predatory, whiney, mean, abusive babies who insist women, all women, must all cater to their every little feefee and whim, is a good place to begin.

It's only a suggestion, and I certainly am not trying to argue the content of your point, but may I observe that the tone here is slightly hostile?

This is how heated arguments break out on topics like this. The emotion we feel when we present our opinions are valid, but in the hopes of a productive discussion a more neutrally worded take is usually helpful.

Otherwise someone who perhaps overall agrees with your opinion but disagrees with minor points suddenly feels attacked and will perhaps themselves respond in a way that you feel is inflammatory, and there the discussion dies out and ends with both parties enraged.

This is only a suggestion, and I certainly am glad for your contributions to this thread.

[Tears of Lys]

When I think of "men as a whole" - and who can really do that? they are all indivduals with different traits and personalities - I think of my dear husband, who is one of if not THE sweetest guys on earth.  He would never dream of treating a woman poorly or not doing his fair share.

And I also think of my grandson, 13 yrs old now, who has to go out in the world someday and face attitudes like this.  He's a kind, thoughtful, very intelligent kid who has no idea what the world has in store for him.

My brother, who died at 56 from esophageal cancer, funny, sweet, goofy, kind to the elderly.  

My cousins, some of which are great guys, others, not so much.  

I just think it does the wonderful men in this world a great disservice by lumping them in with the asshats.  

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Tears of Lys said:

When I think of "men as a whole" -

I'll take "MEN ASSHOLE" for 200, Trebek

God damn it Connery, the topic is "Men as a whole"

 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, IFR said:

This is only a suggestion, and I certainly am glad for your contributions to this thread.

Yes.  Please, one of the men as a whole, make the point a woman made that this problem entirely man made. . Lecture women on what THEY must do to fix a problem and tell them they shouldn't feel hostile about it.

 

Edited April 9 by Zorral

[IFR]

Just now, Zorral said:

Yes.  Please, one of the men as a whole. Lecture women on what THEY must do to fix a problem that is entirely man made.

 

I'm a woman.

[Zorral]

2 minutes ago, IFR said:

I'm a woman.

Well then, you should know this is entirely a man made problem.  Unless, of course, as the boomers used to say, you're part of the problem not the solution?  You know, like the trad wives on insta making a living by lecturing other women to be subservient, yaddayaddayadda?