US Politics: Time for the Stormy season with a chance of conviction

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, mormont said:

Scot, I'm not sure you understand the difference between a protest and a debating society. 

I do.  And I’ve never been overly fond of mass protest precisely because nuance isn’t its strong suit and most political issues are more nuanced than the average protester wants to accept.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

However, I’m also under no illusion that Hamas is the “good guy” or that the use of “from the river to the  sea” is anything but a slogan for expulsion (or worse) of entire ethnic groups within the territory of Israel/Palestine whichever side trots it out.

This is ascribing motives to the protesters that the vast majority of which do not share.  And frankly buying into a concerted effort to delegitimize any pro-Palestinian sentiment.  Protesting against the indiscriminate violence perpetrated on Palestinians does not necessarily mean support for Hamas.  This is like saying since there was looting and property damage during the George Floyd protests, that’s all the protesters were interested in.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Who knows?  They US doesn't appear to have much influence right now.  It's not illogical to think that cutting of military aid to Israel is a more direct and sensible option.  

But the US government has been supporting Israel for a long time.  Maybe it's illogical to protestors to think that the US would suddenly rein in Israel by providing them with more weapons.  If protestors felt they had better ways of influencing the US government I doubt they'd be out there right now.  

 

I disagree.  As bad as this has been it could have been much worse.  Consider how Israel would have behaved if Trump had been office with Netanyahu in Israel.  It can, sadly, always be worse.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

This is ascribing motives to the protesters that the vast majority of which do not share.  And frankly buying into a concerted effort to delegitimize any pro-Palestinian sentiment.  Protesting against the indiscriminate violence perpetrated on Palestinians does not necessarily mean support for Hamas.  This is like saying since there was looting and property damage during the George Floyd protests, that’s all the protesters were interested in.

Support for Hamas by protesters doesn’t equate to support for expulsion (or worse) of Jewish Israelis?  Given that is a stated goal of Hamas and to my knowledge Hamas hasn’t moderated that goal how else should overt support for Hamas by protesters and use of its slogans be construed?

This isn’t to defend Netanyahu or the Israeli Likud government there actions are reprehensible.  But supporting other reprehensible actors doesn’t seem, to me, like a good plan.

I support two state solution.  I oppose Israeli efforts to expel Palestinians and Palestinians efforts to expel Israeli Jews.

Edited April 23 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Support for Hamas by protesters doesn’t equate to support for expulsion (or worse) of Jewish Israelis?

Dude, read the post you’re responding to:

20 minutes ago, DMC said:

Protesting against the indiscriminate violence perpetrated on Palestinians does not necessarily mean support for Hamas.

Ironically, it’s your perspective here that lacks nuance in erroneously assuming pro-Palestine = pro-Hamas.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Dude, read the post you’re responding to:

Ironically, it’s your perspective here that lacks nuance in erroneously assuming pro-Palestine = pro-Hamas.

There are protestors overtly supporting Hamas, using Hamas slogans, and claiming all Jewish Israelis are colonists who should be expelled from Israel.  Not all of them certainly but some of them.  That is what bothers me about aggressive protests.  Subtly is usually lost as nuanced goals are not the strong suit of protests:

https://apnews.com/article/columbia-yale-israel-palestinians-protests-56c3d9d0a278c15ed8e4132a75ea9599

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

There are protestors overtly supporting Hamas, using Hamas slogans, and claiming all Jewish Israelis are colonists who should be expelled from Israel.  Not all of them certainly but some of them.

Again:

29 minutes ago, DMC said:

This is like saying since there was looting and property damage during the George Floyd protests, that’s all the protesters were interested in.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Again:

 

Nope.  I don’t recall protestors in 2020 defending or supporting the buring of buildings… do you?  I recall most of that violence being perpetrated by “boogaloo boys” who wanted it blamed on the protestors.

Edited April 23 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[SeanF]

29 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Support for Hamas by protesters doesn’t equate to support for expulsion (or worse) of Jewish Israelis?  Given that is a stated goal of Hamas and to my knowledge Hamas hasn’t moderated that goal how else should overt support for Hamas by protesters and use of its slogans be construed?

This isn’t to defend Netanyahu or the Israeli Likud government there actions are reprehensible.  But supporting other reprehensible actors doesn’t seem, to me, like a good plan.

I support two state solution.  I oppose Israeli efforts to expel Palestinians and Palestinians efforts to expel Israeli Jews.

It’s a good idea for the protestors to disassociate themselves from people who support Hamas.  The latter are vicious anti-semites.  The same way that Tommy Robinson was told to clear off, when he tried to join a march against anti-semitism in London.  Otherwise, you end up tarnishing your cause.

Edited April 23 by SeanF

[mormont]

Scot, protest is a legitimate tool, and no, it doesn't have nuance. But nuance isn't always useful or good. Different tools are suitable for different purposes. Nuance alone would not have won universal suffrage. 

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Nope.  I don’t recall protestors in 2020 defending or supporting the buring of buildings… do you?

…And where are you seeing the organizers of these protests supporting Hamas?  This is classic straw manning.

To your broader point, do I suspect pro-Palestinian protests to directly affect policy change?  Nope, absolutely not.  But you can say that about most protest movements.

Based on your logic, the people that participated in the Women’s March, or March For Our Lives, or the host of climate change protests, all should have just stayed home.  The impact of most protest movements is an attempt to shift public opinion and - more importantly - politically engage those that otherwise wouldn’t be.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

…And where are you seeing the organizers of these protests supporting Hamas?  This is classic straw manning.

To your broader point, do I suspect pro-Palestinian protests to directly affect policy change?  Nope, absolutely not.  But you can say that about most protest movements.

Based on your logic, the people that participated in the Women’s March, or March For Our Lives, or the host of climate change protests, all should have just stayed home.  The impact of most protest movements is an attempt to shift public opinion and - more importantly - politically engage those that otherwise wouldn’t be.

I didn’t say the organizers of the protest support Hamas.  I said some of the protesters do.  See the AP article I linked it mentions protesters shouting slogans that support Hamas.

@mormont

I appreciate your point of view even if I don’t entirely agree.  In my view these types of protests tend to demonize one faction and make angels of another.  That simply isn’t the case in this circumstance.  I oppose Israeli violence against innocent Palestinians and I oppose Hamas violence against innocent Israelis.  

I have seen activists, elsewhere online, argue there are no innocent Israelis because, they say, all Jewish Israelis are “colonizers”.  It was on Twitter last year… I haven’t been frequenting twitter for several months.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

Based on your logic, the people that participated in the Women’s March, or March For Our Lives, or the host of climate change protests, all should have just stayed home.  The impact of most protest movements is an attempt to shift public opinion and - more importantly - politically engage those that otherwise wouldn’t be.

I’m not saying the protests should be banned.  I’m saying there are elements within the protests that are problematic in my opinion.

Edited April 23 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I didn’t say the organizers of the protest support Hamas.  I said some of the protesters do.  See the AP article I linked it mentions protesters shouting slogans that support Hamas.

The AP article you cited also details many involved in the protests explicitly denouncing what you’re concerned about.

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m not saying the protests should be banned.  I’m saying there are elements within the protests that are problematic in my opinion.

Sure.  So?  Why should that stop the elements that aren’t problematic?  You started this off by saying you didn’t understand why they were protesting because the US wasn’t directly involved in the war.  It’s telling that your argument has gone far afield of that since.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

The AP article you cited also details many involved in the protests explicitly denouncing what you’re concerned about.

Sure.  So?  Why should that stop the elements that aren’t problematic?  You started this off by saying you didn’t understand why they were protesting because the US wasn’t directly involved in the war.  It’s telling that your argument has gone far afield of that since.

Yes.  

[Maithanet]

The protest at Columbia explicitly had one of the Jewish student groups as active participants.  The argument that this is a protest largely run by anti-semites is a smear made by people who don't want to confront the actual substance of the anti-war protests.  Now, I am sure that there are indeed some people who seek to either hijack the protests into something explicitly anti-semitic, or discredit the protests by associating them with hateful groups.  Many of those people are not even students at Columbia, but just outside troublemakers. 

This is a problem of protests of basically any size - you cannot gatekeep effectively.  All you can do is try and make your message heard and make clear that hate groups are not welcome (something the protest leaders at Columbia are explicitly doing). 

I remember at the Women's March, I saw thousands of signs, and not even one of them was hateful, but that night on Fox News they were happy to highlight some asshole who did just that.  It made me angry that they were attempting to discredit the Women's March in that way, but that's the game they play.  Everyone should remember (when viewing protests on both sides) that the coverage has the ability to highlight extremist members that probably don't represent the group at large.  

[DMC]

It should also be emphasized that a majority of Americans now disapprove of Israel’s conduct in the war.  It should come as no surprise that this is manifesting on college campuses in such a manner.  Especially when it’s the end of the semester and participation sounds a whole hell of a lot better than studying for finals.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

It should also be emphasized that a majority of Americans now disapprove of Israel’s conduct in the war.  It should come as no surprise that this is manifesting on college campuses in such a manner.  Especially when it’s the end of the semester and participation sounds a whole hell of a lot better than studying for finals.

Yes.  I also disapprove of Israel’s conduct of the war in Gaza.

[Fez]

1 hour ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Who knows?  They US doesn't appear to have much influence right now.  It's not illogical to think that cutting of military aid to Israel is a more direct and sensible option.  

But the US government has been supporting Israel for a long time.  Maybe it's illogical to protestors to think that the US would suddenly rein in Israel by providing them with more weapons.  If protestors felt they had better ways of influencing the US government I doubt they'd be out there right now.  

 

Setting aside the merits or concerns about the protests, my main issue is that protesting on campus is basically pointless and just wastes people's time. The student demands are either impossible for the universities for achieve or doable but wouldn't have any impact on Israel. They'd be much more impactful protesting at congresspersons' townhall events and outside their district offices. Or, in the case of the NYC-based students, protesting outside the mayor's office or city council; since the NYC government has much larger economic ties to Israel than any university.

The only thing you achieve protesting on campus is smug self-satisfaction. And potentially intimidate Jewish students.

[kissdbyfire]

34 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I have seen activists, elsewhere online, argue there are no innocent Israelis because, they say, all Jewish Israelis are “colonizers”.  It was on Twitter last year… I haven’t been frequenting twitter for several months

I have seen these as well, and I find them vile. Just as vile as the several Israelis, many of them government officials, spewing the same rhetoric. 

I think I understand the points you're making here, but at the same time it feels to me that you're engaging in a form of bothsideism similar to what we see in the media nowadays. 

Peaceful protests are one of the main tools civil society has to express itself and to try to have their voices heard. Should they be prohibited or repressed b/c of the odd 'extremist'? And keeping I mind that these individuals aren't always just people who are protesting for the same reason as the others but has more extreme views, they often are bad actors who are deliberately trying to sabotage a legal and valid movement.