US Politics: Time for the Stormy season with a chance of conviction

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Zorral said:

FYI -- The research deskers are listening to the call-in section of the NPR affiliated public radio program right now about the topic of NYU and Columbia protests in particular and the push back from the vast majority of the callers at the idea that Jewish students on the campuses are in danger and that the campuses are antisemitic is exceedingly coherent and cogent.  Many of the callers are not only Jewish residents of the city, but were part of the protests in the Vietnam era, who lay out the culpability of the universities in the programs to develop weapons to more accurately target Vietnamese villages, toxic chemicals to deforest Vietnam and so on.  The protests were pointed at the universities to stop that, and divest -- just as the protests are targeting presently.

Very interesting!

I just watched the video linked below and they talk about all of that as well. They also talk about protests (at Yale if I'm not mistaken) explicitly demanding divestment from weapons manufacturers, which seems very reasonable to me, regardless of how very profitable it must be.

They have a Columbia professor on and going by what he says it seems the president's response to the protests might have been a tad exaggerated.

 

 

Edited April 23 by kissdbyfire
clarity

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 hours ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Protests aren't about being a pragmatic solution.  They are what happens when pragmatic solutions fail or are ignored.  It's like putting a pot of water in a lit stove.  Eventually it's gonna boil over and make a mess.  It's a predictable consequence of doing nothing to address an injustice that many people are very aware of.

That sounds like the conditions of rioting or other upheavals. Protests certainly can be and often are strategic and calculated. Activists who organize protests are usually pragmatic and shrewd in their way, though that doesn't have to mean milquetoast or non-disruptive. 

There is agency and intention at play here with respect to means and methods. Let's not liken coordinated actions to forces of nature.

 

Edited April 23 by Phylum of Alexandria
Forces of nature (hey, I'm still jet lagged)

[DireWolfSpirit]

Seasoned protesters recognize the Black Bloc Anarchists among them and understand they can draw a disproportionate amount of media attention.

I usually tend to land heavily on the side of the street protestors, they arent driven to action till theyve been grievously wronged in the majority of instances.

The fact that a few anarchists relish getting in on the ride and are seeking publicity doesnt dissuade me from seeing the overall good from standing up to and countering the power structures and misguided decision makers that have made the conditions necessary for the protests in the first place.

In other words you have to leap over a shit ton of guilty party to point out or call out the protestors in a lot of cases. They get my benefit of doubt, few bad apples aside.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

That sounds like the conditions of rioting or other upheavals. Protests certainly can be and often are strategic and calculated. Activists who organize protests are usually pragmatic and shrewd in their way, though that doesn't have to mean milquetoast or non-disruptive. 

There is agency and intention at play here with respect to means and methods. Let's not liken coordinated actions to natural disasters.

Yeah let's not like protests to natural disasters or libraries or cupcakes or sea monsters, I am 100% on board with that.  

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Yeah let's not like protests to natural disasters or libraries or cupcakes or sea monsters, I am 100% on board with that.  

Okay, let's not fall on the language of inevitability.

[Larry of the Lawn]

10 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Okay, let's not fall on the language of inevitability.

Sure, some protests are strategic and have planning. My "pragmatic" comment was directed at people who seem to think that there is some electoral or specific public policy that's going to change immediately.  I doubt most protestors think that's going to happen. 

My commentary was directed at people who seem baffled or confused as to why people would be out there protesting.  I am amused that people are confused by this.  

I stand by my statement that protests are likely to happen when conventional or pragmatic solutions fail or are ignored. 

For what it's worth I've spent quite a bit of time on the pavement.  I went to college in DC immediately after 9/11 and was out in front of the Whitehouse at least once a week for a couple hours for a couple years.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Sure, some protests are strategic and have planning. My "pragmatic" comment was directed at people who seem to think that there is some electoral or specific public policy that's going to change immediately.  I doubt most protestors think that's going to happen. 

My commentary was directed at people who seem baffled or confused as to why people would be out there protesting.  I am amused that people are confused by this.  

I stand by my statement that protests are likely to happen when conventional or pragmatic solutions fail or are ignored. 

For what it's worth I've spent quite a bit of time on the pavement.  I went to college in DC immediately after 9/11 and was out in front of the Whitehouse at least once a week for a couple hours for a couple years.

All good. As long as the depiction of protest as force of nature isn't used to paper over the uglier aspects of certain protestors as "inevitable," your comment makes perfect sense. It's just that sometimes people do use such framings to paper over nasty behavior, and so such statements can easily have a whiff of creepy zealotry to me. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

11 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

All good. As long as the depiction of protest as force of nature isn't used to paper over the uglier aspects of certain protestors as "inevitable," your comment makes perfect sense. It's just that sometimes people do use such framings to paper over nasty behavior, and so such statements can easily have a whiff of creepy zealotry to me. 

Well good thing I didn't do that then, huh? 

You're the one that said "inevitable" scolding me for "the language of inevitability" and likening protests to a "natural disaster" (which I didn't do, by the way!)

I guess I missed the part where I said "pick whatever you think is the worst, most toxic part about protesting, and let it be known to all the land, that's the part I fucking support!".  

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Well good thing I didn't do that then, huh? 

Yes, it is good. This wasn't me accusing you of such. Just, a little concern 'til a got a little more info. All is well, relax.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

It's worth noting the protestors calling for divestment generally have been doing so for years with a clear understanding of the damage it would do to Israel. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

19 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Sure, some protests are strategic and have planning. My "pragmatic" comment was directed at people who seem to think that there is some electoral or specific public policy that's going to change immediately.  I doubt most protestors think that's going to happen. 

My commentary was directed at people who seem baffled or confused as to why people would be out there protesting.  I am amused that people are confused by this.  

I stand by my statement that protests are likely to happen when conventional or pragmatic solutions fail or are ignored. 

For what it's worth I've spent quite a bit of time on the pavement.  I went to college in DC immediately after 9/11 and was out in front of the Whitehouse at least once a week for a couple hours for a couple years.

Im positive me and a busload from Chi-town were out there on one of those weekends with you.

Marching, rallying, protests and picketing are relished memories from the those long 8 years that the "Bush The Lesser" regime occupied the White House.

Whether it was opposing the Iraq invasion or fighting for a fair labor contract I had a bullhorn or home made picket sign ready to go.

People saying its pointless is funny, it filled my esteem with light during those long dark days when Cheney and Rumsfield were bombing the shit out of the cradle of civilization.

My conscious was clear in opposition and that was priceless to me, far from pointless.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Columbia Univ. Jewish students having their Passover in the protest encampment-

Video enclosed

"Inside the Seder dinner on Columbia's Gaza protest encampment"

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/23/us/video/seder-passover-columbia-university-protests-ny-digvid

 

[DMC]

So Biden chose my campus to hold an event today, literally the building adjacent to where I work and teach.  I don’t have much to share - my main take is it was a bitch and a half getting out of there to get home (thanks Biden!) - but a few observations:

First, there was a decent-sized pro-Palestinian contingent, probably 45 to 50 people by my reckoning.  These were non-students and true believers - Biden coming specifically here was not public knowledge, even to our students, until this morning.  Their signage and chants were of course incendiary, but in about ten minutes observing them…and then another five when the fuckers held up traffic as I was trying to leave, I did not see nor hear anything antisemitic.

There also was a number of students on the rope line with pro-Palestinian signage, but nothing I could see that was even offensive - particularly compared to the much more hateful right wing rabble.

At one point a contingent of about a dozen RFK supporters walked by me.  10 out of 12 were at least seventy.

When I went to the back lot to smoke as I do every day I shot the shit with a couple secret service agents cuz that’s where Biden was arriving.  They were good guys.

[Zorral]

Before the students got busted up by cops, they'd held a seder, last night.

At the moment, Washington Square Park is packed with protesters of the bombing of Gaza and NYU's participation in the military and other industries of aid and assistance to that war.

It's almost like a time capsule, as this afternoon's WNYC's 1A program featured the 60's, particularly the music and its connections with political protests and other movements of the time, particularly focusing on ... The Jefferson Airplane.  Ha! One quite thinks that very people in any capacity at NYU right now were even born in 1967.

https://the1a.org/segments/the-sounds-of-america-surrealistic-pillow/

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

41 minutes ago, DMC said:

When I went to the back lot to smoke as I do every day I shot the shit with a couple secret service agents cuz that’s where Biden was arriving.  They were good guys.

SS people tend to be shockingly nice. It's also disarming to see how jacked they all are in person. You don't typically notice that through a suit, but they all look like giant linebackers in my experience at least. 

I've also mentioned this before that I was goofing off with them one time when Biden was VP and their tone changed very quickly and all of the sudden he was standing just a few feet from me. Was kind of surreal. Just wish it had been Obama because I would have said something to him and eaten the discipline afterwards. 

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

SS people tend to be shockingly nice.

I did have great interactions with them when I lived in DC.  Pretty sure I’ve shared a couple of those anecdotes here previously.  Them all being “jacked,” though, has not been my experience.  I mean they’re all clearly in shape, but it’s not like hanging out with a bunch of bodybuilders.

[Zorral]

The stinkin' pile is now whining outrage at the amount of security around 100 Centre Street -- insisting THIS is why there aren't millions of his supporters there to demand his freedom of speech and movement, but instead, only about 5 people standing around chatting and enjoying the sunshine.  Another political persecution of martyr to freedum him.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Waiting on the results of the PA primary to see what lessons we can learn. Again, its going to be the number of Haley voters (she's still on the ballot I believe) and 'uncommitted' write-ins against Biden. 

[Zorral]

O yes, here we go again with that tired old canard.  Stupid lazy ignorant dumb corrupt mayor all in with real estate, finance and cops insists its all outside agitators on the city's campuses.  There is no way these students could actually care about, in their hearts, about the issues about which they are protesting the schools which are profiting directly from them in the millions and millions of dollars.

[ThinkerX]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

O yes, here we go again with that tired old canard.  Stupid lazy ignorant dumb corrupt mayor all in with real estate, finance and cops insists its all outside agitators on the city's campuses.  There is no way these students could actually care about, in their hearts, about the issues about which they are protesting the schools which are profiting directly from them in the millions and millions of dollars.

Isn't it written into the city charter that NYC's Mayor WILL be corrupt, no exceptions ever?