please help

[angie]

[quote name='gryphon strike' post='1564464' date='Oct 22 2008, 19.50']He is angry because he is ashamed of his actions is my bet Angie. Many people act like that when they know they are doing the wrong thing.[/quote]

Good point. Hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense.



[quote name='Tobin' post='1564471' date='Oct 22 2008, 19.59']I'm doing better - but I kinda don't want to go home tonight.
He may seem like a dick right now, but he can be really wonderful too.

Gods.
That sounded a bit too much like something a battered wife would say.[/quote]

I know what you mean.

And I like the potential new tattoo. :)

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1564471' date='Oct 22 2008, 19.59']I'm doing better - but I kinda don't want to go home tonight.
He may seem like a dick right now, but he can be really wonderful too.

Gods.
That sounded a bit too much like something a battered wife would say.[/quote]

Glad you are doing better :grouphug:

No, it doesn't sound like something a battered wife would say. I married two great guys. At least they were great when things were going well for us. They are both wonderful and devoted fathers. But when things got bad, they both treated me like shit. No physical abuse (there is always some emotional abuse when things are falling apart)

Some days I hate saying how bad they were, especially since everyone who meets them always say what nice guys they are. They are nice guys. We had issues and when things got bad, we all changed.

I've been living in the same house with my second husband as just "roommates" for over 1 1/2 years and it is hard to do. I have finally had enough and put my foot down that next year we are selling the house and moving apart from each other. It is too stressful being together and every time he is stressed or upset all the anger seems to get directed my way. I'm glad you are looking at places and wish you all the best. Stay positive and take care of yourself.

[Wade1066]

Never understood why men take out stress on innocent people.

[Angalin]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1564471' date='Oct 22 2008, 18.59']I think I sent him over the edge when I told him this morning that my sister wanted a copy of his payment stub so she could see his income.
I could see where he would over-react - but it was a fair request. I think he felt that she was looking for more than what he had offered.
I don't know if he'll listen that she was just trying to make sure that everything was fair (she asked for mine too).[/quote]
Tobin, all that stuff is much easier if a third party does it. Not your sister, but an actual professional who isn't bothered if it upsets him to be asked to do a perfectly reasonable thing in the circumstances. I think it will be good for you to live separately while this is being settled, because it sounds as if whenever there's a part of the process that he doesn't like, he's going to take it out on you. And you don't have to live in this next apartment forever.

Also, all of what Kay said.

[gryphon strike]

[quote name='Tobin' post='1564471' date='Oct 23 2008, 09.29']I think he was angry anyway - he hasn't been sleeping well. He's been brooding about things lately as well. A friend said that if all he's dwelling on the bad stuff that happened to us - he's not going to be willing to think positively about anything I have to say.

I think I sent him over the edge when I told him this morning that my sister wanted a copy of his payment stub so she could see his income.
I could see where he would over-react - but it was a fair request. I think he felt that she was looking for more than what he had offered.
I don't know if he'll listen that she was just trying to make sure that everything was fair (she asked for mine too).



I'm doing better - but I kinda don't want to go home tonight.
He may seem like a dick right now, but he can be really wonderful too.

Gods.
That sounded a bit too much like something a battered wife would say.



Part of me really is excited about getting out on my own - having my own place and my own things around me again. I know it will hurt - and will hurt worse if I run into him at our friends' house with some other girl.
Who knows - maybe I'll end up with a boyfriend to sail past him.

I've been kicking around a [url="http://www.freewebs.com/the-blackwolf-clan/img/Paw-Blued-2-200px.png"]tattoo design[/url]. Be it a symbol of my new life or a reminder not to forget, I'm not sure.[/quote]
So a perfectly reasonable request relayed from the mediator he chose means that You pushed him over the edge?

Now I am sorry but thats you taking responsibility for his actions Tobin.
And yes that to me does sound like battered wife syndrome, sorry but if you are going to look at his unreasonable responses as being your fault then you HAVE to get a profesional in. let them tell him directly what they need. Yes it may cost money but its better than you accepting the blame for him being an arsehole!

[potsherds]

[quote name='Kay Fury' post='1564334' date='Oct 22 2008, 21.35']Tobin-

I cannot stress enough that you should get a lawyer. The belongings you got rid of to merge your life with his kind of make you entitled to a share of the furniture, regardless of whether it was his before or not. You got rid of yours to accomodate it. Your credit card debt is also something he should be liable for and you'll need your lawyer and credit card statements to demonstrate what debt was incurred while he was out of work. As far as your rings, traditionally whoever leaves forfeits that property. You should keep them and sell them or have the stone made into something nice for yourself- I know lots of divorcees who have done this as a means of symbolizing their new life. Any improvements made to the house during your marriage might entitle you to a share of its worth. Too many people do not go after what is theirs in a divorce. From the look of it to me, he hasn't been very generous with you, he's just made you think he is. Paying his own damn bills so you can pay down credit card debt he incurred is not generosity. If the house and everything in it are all his, the expense should always have been all his. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but you sound to me like you are getting screwed, and a lawyer will protect you. [b]And just to throw this out there- I think he's a dick for being bothered you couldn't get pregnant.[/b][/quote]

I'd like to third this. I would actually consider the possibility that this is the primary factor and say, with all sincerity: fuck him. I'm sorry to say this, but when I saw the thread, that was the first thing I remembered, and I'm not surprised he brought it up. I think he's being disingenuous if he's not admitting to you what a big deal he's making over that. And I can't express how angry it makes me, to suspect that's such a huge factor because it shouldn't be. Fuck him.


I'm really sorry you have to go through this. :( But I think you'll be a happier person in the long run.

And you really need to get a lawyer. Kay is right about red flags. You need someone who can protect you from getting screwed.

[alguien]

[quote name='Wade1066' post='1564502' date='Oct 22 2008, 19.44']Never understood why [s]men[/s] [u]people[/u] take out stress on [s]innocent people[/s] [u]others[/u].[/quote]

Corrected.

And the answer: human nature

eta: very sorry for your loss, tobin

[Lyanna Stark]

Just a comment about the WoW stuff, since I have played it as well, both along and together with my other half.

Yes, it can ruin relationships if that is all you have, but also, and very importantly: you are two different people. BOTH need to make efforts. It sounds like he dropped this one on you from out of the blue, which is not fair. It sounds to me like there are issues there he doesn't want to deal with. And why is he angry at you? He is the one who is leaving you. You should be angry, if anyone.

So yeah, I have to fourth (or is it fifth?) what Kay said. Please make sure you take care of yourself first and think of your own future. In ten years this guy will be gone from your life, but how you come out of this will still affect you.

As for the not getting pregnant part, have you discussed it a lot on the past? Or did you get any indications that he was extremely keen on children? I don't want to pry at all, but there are lot of ways couples deal with not getting pregnant. Did you discuss fertility treatments, adoption etc.? It just seems.....cold :/ to leave your spouse for something like that when there are options to be had, although I understand it is a difficult problem to face.

Oh and :grouphug:

[theMountainGoat]

Sorry to hear you're going through this Tobin :grouphug: but I've got to echo what everyone else is saying - get a Lawyer. Seriously.

It's not like you are a boyfriend/girlfriend splitting up and dividing stuff into who bought what and whose CD is that. You were married and that means you are entitled to [b]HALF OF EVERYTHING HE OWNS[/b]. Including the house, the car, all the furniture. Everything. Also he is entitled to half of everything you own - including your credit card debt. You should at minimum get that cleared before you walk away from this.

I have to agree that the fact that he wants to keep lawyers out of this and the reason he seems generous by allowing you to live with him rent free means he knows just how much you are entitled to and does not want you to go after it.

Admittedly if you do that then there is no chance of staying friends with him let alone finding a way to get back together again - but the odds are those two things are unlikely anyway. Sorry to say but that is the more common result of divorce.

You've got to look out for yourself because if you let him take everything then you will be seriously reducing your quality of life from now till the day you meet that millionaire who sweeps you off your feet. Life is too short to compromise yourself living in poverty when you are entitled to better.

Best of luck to you.

[Geddon]

Sorry to hear about your troubles Tobin, I think an independent mediator is a good idea - people tend to make bad decisions when they are under stress. You need to protect yourself and your future.

[quote name='potsherds' post='1564541' date='Oct 23 2008, 02.42']I'd like to third this. I would actually consider the possibility that this is the primary factor and say, with all sincerity: fuck him. I'm sorry to say this, but when I saw the thread, that was the first thing I remembered, and I'm not surprised he brought it up. I think he's being disingenuous if he's not admitting to you what a big deal he's making over that. And I can't express how angry it makes me, to suspect that's such a huge factor [b]because it shouldn't be[/b]. Fuck him.[/quote]

I don't have enough information to comment on Tobin's relationship specifically but in general I'm not sure why you think this shouldn't be a big factor in deciding to separate from somebody. For many people the desire to have children is very strong and is a primary motivator in wanting to be in a relationship in the first place. Most couples will discuss their views on children (whether they want them at all, how many, how soon etc.) before deciding whether or not to marry - if a lack of children would be a deal-breaker before getting married why should it not be after?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tobin,

Even if you don't get a lawyer for the mediation please at the bare minium have a lawyer review any proposed settlement agreement before you sign on the dotted line. You don't have to tell him you're going to have a professional review it. Just tell him you want a few days to chew it over. He will be ending what he professed to be lifetime commitment so a few days for you to ponder the details is hardly too much to ask.

Additionaly, that he would use no kids as a reason or rational for divorce is the hight of prickishness in my humble opinion.

Geddon,

It's prickishness because getting pregnant is not something either party can necessarily guarantee. You make a commitment for a lifetime, or you don't. You don't say I'm going to spend the rest of my life with you provided you give me X, Y, and Z. If X, Y, and Z are not forthcoming my lifetime commitment is then null and void.

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1564766' date='Oct 23 2008, 08.09']Tobin,

Even if you don't get a lawyer for the mediation please at the bare minium have a lawyer review any proposed settlement agreement before you sign on the dotted line. You don't have to tell him you're going to have a professional review it. Just tell him you want a few days to chew it over. He will be ending what he professed to be lifetime commitment so a few days for you to ponder the details is hardly too much to ask.[/quote]

Agree 100%. Like Scot says, you don't even have to tell him. Good plan B if he won't agree to formal mediation.

It might help, from his perspective, if you phrase things in terms of what you need, instead of what you're entitled to. I mean, we all know that's not the case, but it might make him be less of an ass about it to just pretend that's what you're talking about when you go over it all with him.

[quote]Additionaly, that he would use no kids as a reason or rational for divorce is the hight of prickishness in my humble opinion.

Geddon,

It's prickishness because getting pregnant is not something either party can necessarily guarantee. You make a commitment for a lifetime, or you don't. You don't say I'm going to spend the rest of my life with you provided you give me X, Y, and Z. If X, Y, and Z are not forthcoming my lifetime commitment is then null and void.[/quote]

And again, agree 100%.

[danro]

[quote name='Wade1066' post='1564502' date='Oct 23 2008, 02.44']Never understood why men take out stress on innocent people.[/quote]
It's not just men.

And the only reason you're saying that is that your day job is to ride around in a tank and break stuff. That sounds like one major stress reliever to me.

[Lyanna Stark]

I completely agree with Ser Scot here: you cannot govern your body. For some women it takes longer to get pregnant, for some it won't work at all, while some might be helped by fertility treatment. Plus of course, there is also adoption.

I'd also like to add in addition to Ser Scot's comments that Tobin didn't mention the time scale, but women getting off the pill often take 1+ year to get pregnant. Plus as far as I understand, Tobin didn't disagree with the wish for children, or prevented it from happening.

So it is not only "You must provide me with X,Y and Z for me to not break this contract" it is also adding "You must provide X,Y and Z within the timeframe T" which makes it even more unreasonable.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1564766' date='Oct 23 2008, 08.09']It's prickishness because getting pregnant is not something either party can necessarily guarantee. You make a commitment for a lifetime, or you don't. You don't say I'm going to spend the rest of my life with you provided you give me X, Y, and Z. If X, Y, and Z are not forthcoming my lifetime commitment is then null and void.[/quote]

:wideeyed:
I'm agreeing with Scot. Will the world come to an end? :P

[davos]

I'm so sorry to hear this, Tobin.

For the love of God, Allah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or whatever is most appropriatte for your particular system of beliefs get a lawyer. It can sound like the best thing to do to just try to resolve all the issues by agreement between you to. Its almost always not. I've known to many people who've gone through divorce without a lawyer and have regretted doing so latter. Unless you have no assets and debts to deal with you are going to want legal advice. When it comes to splitting all those things up you want it in writing and you want someone who knows the laws and understands the implications of divorce to make sure that its worded in such a way to be fair to you. Even if you can come to amiacable agreements about everything you still want a professional to set those agreements down in a legal document. and if there are any significant disagreements at all you want someone advocating for you. He's the one who has decided to end this. You've got the rest of your life ahead of you. At this point you need to not be thinking of his feelings or if you can be friends afterward. You need to be looking out for your needs and to try to come out of this in the best position you can for your future. That doesn't mean you are trying to take him to the cleaners, just that you are trying to get as fair a deal out of it as you can.

I would recommend getting yourself some counceling if your insurance covers it. I want for just a few sessions after my divorce and but those helped me tremendously. Just being able to talk through things with a trained pyscholigist really did wonders for helping me get perspective on everything that went down. I also did a 12 week divorce support group, which was really beneficial for helping me to move on. Things are really bad now and I'm sure you feel like you are dying. take it a day at a time. Find places you can vent. Spend time with friends if you can. Its a hard row to hoe getting through a divorce and finding your way back to some sanity. It will happen in time though. Just stick in there and take care of yourself.

[mashiara]

[quote name='Kay Fury' post='1564334' date='Oct 23 2008, 00.35']Tobin-

I cannot stress enough that you should get a lawyer. The belongings you got rid of to merge your life with his kind of make you entitled to a share of the furniture, regardless of whether it was his before or not. You got rid of yours to accomodate it. Your credit card debt is also something he should be liable for and you'll need your lawyer and credit card statements to demonstrate what debt was incurred while he was out of work. As far as your rings, traditionally whoever leaves forfeits that property. You should keep them and sell them or have the stone made into something nice for yourself- I know lots of divorcees who have done this as a means of symbolizing their new life. Any improvements made to the house during your marriage might entitle you to a share of its worth. Too many people do not go after what is theirs in a divorce. From the look of it to me, he hasn't been very generous with you, he's just made you think he is. Paying his own damn bills so you can pay down credit card debt he incurred is not generosity. If the house and everything in it are all his, the expense should always have been all his. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but you sound to me like you are getting screwed, and a lawyer will protect you. And just to throw this out there- I think he's a dick for being bothered you couldn't get pregnant.[/quote]

Let me be one more of the people agreeing with exactly what Kay said. You do need a lawyer to help you protect your rights. Don't let him make you believe that he's treating you fairly when he's not.

The last part is bothering me a lot. If that's the true reason he's breaking up your marriage then he's being horribly unfair to you. There are thousands, millions of women out there trying to get pregnant. A year isn't nearly enough time to rule out the possibility of conceiving naturally but even if that was the case there are many ways that can help a couple out. It's not as if you didn't want to get pregnant, or as if you weren't trying.

I understand how people view children as a very serious part of a marriage. I do too, actually. But like Scot said, when you get married you make a real commitment to a person, without conditions.

I do hope you manage to find an apartment that works for you soon. And I like the new tattoo design.

:grouphug: again.

[HT Reddy]

[quote name='Xray the Enforcer' post='1564788' date='Oct 23 2008, 13.37']:wideeyed:
I'm agreeing with Scot. Will the world come to an end? :P[/quote]

Yup. Thanks for that.

[mormont]

Tobin: like everyone else, I want to offer my sympathy. Divorce really sucks, and when it's not what you want that makes it worse.

None of us can know what your husband is really like as a person or assess his current behaviour properly, although we can infer certain things from what you're telling us and from our own experiences. But going from your comments about how [i]you[/i] feel, I do worry that your hope that you and your husband can 'remain friends' might be getting in the way of clear thinking here. I feel it's making you too inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept what he says as reasonable. It's natural: you still have positive feelings about him, after all. And I am not saying that they are unfounded. He probably does believe that it's best not to get lawyers involved, that the present arrangements are fair to you, etc.

But then again, he isn't in a position to make that call. He can't look at the situation with any real, unbiased clarity.

What you have to focus on right now is not your feelings about your husband, the death of your relationship, or any of that. That needs time to sort out. You have to focus on the practical details: where you're going to live, what income you will have, what assets. Those are immediate things. Whether you and he will stay friends, whether he is a nice guy who gave the marriage his best shot or an asshat who bailed, whether the split is a good thing or a bad thing: these are long-term. Stick to the immediate stuff right now, and for that, you need independent advice, whether that's a lawyer or a mediator or whatever.

Best of luck with everything. :)

[Geddon]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1564766' date='Oct 23 2008, 13.09']Additionaly, that he would use no kids as a reason or rational for divorce is the hight of prickishness in my humble opinion.

Geddon,

[i]It's prickishness because getting pregnant is not something either party can necessarily guarantee[/i]. You make a commitment for a lifetime, or you don't. You don't say I'm going to spend the rest of my life with you provided you give me X, Y, and Z. If X, Y, and Z are not forthcoming my lifetime commitment is then null and void.[/quote]

I don't think people work that way. The fact that chance and biology have conspired against you will in no way lessen the desire or need for a child. These days when one's desires and needs are not being met within a marriage it leads to divorce more often and not, and where divorce is not an option it usually leads to unhappiness, resentment and bitterness in the relationship.

As far as marriage being a lifetime commitment I don't think that is universally true these days. For many people marriage is a commitment that lasts only as long as both parties are getting what they need from the arrangement.