Lost Season 6 thread

[Slurktan]

Just very bizarre. And a lot of this would be averted if they'd actually explain how things work. My guess is that if they explain how things work they'd have a lot of internal inconsistencies that would be very glaringly revealed, and they don't want that - so they keep things vague.

Unfortunately I'm really starting to agree with you after this episode.

To me on thinking on it today, this episode stinks more and more of a writers having no clue what they are doing. And I find it repulsive that they honestly thought it was a good idea for this to be the third last episode. It's not like the episode even had a framing device like Richard's back story. You literally could insert this episode at any point of the series post season 1 except right near the end and it wouldn't feel out of place. But they put it in the one place that completely kills the flow of the show. Great job.

[Kalbear]

Exactly. This is the kind of episode that would have been incredibly awesome back in S3 or something like that. Even as late as S5. But all this Jacob/MiB stuff coming out of nowhere until this season, it just feels so tacked on. This huge, overwhelming mythology that had almost no influence on anything until S3 - and really very little influence until now - it bugs.

Same with Richard's episode. Imagine if S3 had this ep and S4 had Richard's ep. So we find out that there exists some Jacob in S3 (and that the Others apparently are totally into him) and that he created the MiB - but we think MiB is dead. Then in S4 we see MiB back, smokey back, Jacob back and creating the Others through Richard.

But honestly, that couldn't have happened for a number of reasons. They didn't want to have actors on contract for 4 years. They didn't want to paint themselves in a corner. And most likely - they had no idea what the fuck was going on back then.

ETA: on the sneak peeks for next ep:

What the fuck is up with the kid Jacob stealing the ash from Hurley? I just...what?

[Mack Kilimaro]

Why would it be thought a good idea to have a complete flashback info-dump as the third-to-last episode of the series? Seriously, why? Also, I like Allison Janney, but it was weird to have her suddenly brought in for this episode. Very distracting to see someone I strongly recognize from a different role (C.J. on The West Wing) when I'm trying to immerse myself in the Lost story.

In the end, though, what's most disappointing is that none of this stuff really matters. The show's ending will be judged on what's made out of the main timeline and the sideways timeline. I don't know that this episode really granted us any clarity as to what is going on except to reveal that it was C.J. and MIB who were "Adam and Eve" - and that Smokey just took the brother's appearance (not even his body) all that time.

[Kalbear]

and that Smokey just took the brother's appearance (not even his body) all that time.

I don't think this is true. Smokey's definitely got a hate-on for Jacob, and they've got some very big familiarity. Smokey randomly brought up the fact that his mom was crazy too (to Claire) and there's no reason at all that he'd keep the form of Titus 1800 years later.

I think Smokey is what MiB became when he went down that well. That's what happened to his soul. Most souls that die on the island end up trapped there, but his wasn't just trapped - it was converted. Or manifested. Whatever. Point being, it's still intrinsically the brother. His body was separated from his soul or something. But his personality - his desires, his beliefs - all of these are very much alive in Smokey now.

I just don't see them being two separate entities.

[moirne]

I didn't mind the episode, but who was that woman really? How did she get there? What is smokey's name? Or did they say and I missed it, because I was late coming back into the room at one point. And come on Jacob, your mom tells you to never go into the cave and you push your brother inside instead? His momentary stupidity created this whole problem.

[Mack Kilimaro]

We have seen from Fake Locke that the old personality can bleed through. Yet Locke's body clearly was never sent down the giant well of light. So whatever mechanism allowed Smokey to take over the brother's body doesn't seem to have been employed in his taking over Locke's form - but also not Locke's body because we still see dead Locke in the coffin even when Fake Locke is roaming around. It doesn't seem like the brother was involved in the transformation willingly. On the other hand, how could the brother have died given that C.J. made sure they can't kill one another? His was clearly the "Adam" body, though, as the S1 footage so unsubtly reminded us.

This analogy will be lost on the rest of the thread, but since Kal and I are both WOW players, I'm going to throw it out there anyway. To me it feels kind of like how Arthas + Ner'zhul = Lich King. The new entity is both and people just keep calling him Arthas since more people knew Arthas (much like people refer to Fake Locke as Locke since that's the name they know).

[Kalbear]

Yeah, that's kinda what I think too, Mack. But at the same time, there's still a lot of "Arthas" in there. And I guess for me I don't see anything in Smokey's behavior that makes me think that it isn't MiB. I mean...he thought that people were dicks before he got turned. He wanted to leave before he got turned. He used people (a means to an end) before he got turned. He was willing to kill people before he got turned. He played games before he got turned. I don't see any specific changes in his personality from the 'meshing'.

[Werthead]

A fairly large interview here with Lindelof and Cuse on the episode.

I disagree, as I think many will, that this was the 'perfect' place to have the flashback. In fact, I think it would have worked much better even if it had been moved back one week (we had a gap before the previous episode anyway), since MiB's development from someone who wanted his freedom and was betrayed and turned into a murderer would have worked better if we had then seen him turn into a mass-murderer in The Candidate.

It is interesting though:

That according to Darlton and in an interview with Mark 'Jacob' Pellegrino linked on DarkUFO there is still more to clear up on some of these issues. Whether I believe that at this point I'm not sure, but we know from the previews that Jacob's ashes play a role next week.

Also, it sounds like:

We won't get the MiB's name at all. Also, we'll never find out who was on the other side of the outrigger shootout, which is something I'd accepted by now anyway.

[SpaceChampion]

I'm wondering with the knife that if you say the attacker's true name ("Hello, Sayid") he cannot kill you? And that Mother Dearest didn't name MIB in order to protect him? Jacob already had a name, named by his real mother, so too late to use the same trick with him. But the second son was a blank slate, and she didn't name him thinking he would be the protector, and thus invulnerable.

Of course as Smokey not being able to kill him is a problem Jack, Sawyer and the gang are going to have to wrestle with. Perhaps one of them will have to become the next Smokey by going into that light, then the next Jacob kills new Smokey with the knife without new Smokey giving new Jacob's true name, bottling up that evil again.

[Whiskeyjack]

A fairly large interview here with Lindelof and Cuse on the episode.

They came off as defensive douchebags in that interview. I guess it's to be expected.

This episode was extremely disappointing. Yet another show that isn't even going to bother to offer coherent explanations for the compelling mysteries they set up throughout the series.

The part where they tried to address the time/space wheel of doom was where they really lost me.

"How do you know it will work?"

"Because I'm special."

Fuck you, Lost. At this point, you are Battlestar Galactica version 2.

[Shryke]

They came off as defensive douchebags in that interview. I guess it's to be expected.

I always laugh at stuff like this cause it really comes down to interpretation. I didn't think they came off like douches at all. I thought they came off as guys who've just decided to not get worked up over what some fans will get all worked up about.I agreed with alot of what they said.

And I think they made some mis-steps, but I think where I think they made the mis-steps will be alot different from where other people think they did.

But really, I think the Outrigger thing is a good example. It bugs the crap out of alot of people. But for many, including the writers apparently, it doesn't and/or explaining it just wouldn't work.

I think they are right in that you can't make your nothing but an explanation of the mysteries involved. That's how you end up with a shitty episode like "No Exit".

Sometimes the shit you think matters isn't the shit the writers think matters and sometimes there's just no way to hit certain points while still making a good show.

[Whiskeyjack]

I think they are right in that you can't make your nothing but an explanation of the mysteries involved. That's how you end up with a shitty episode like "No Exit".

Sometimes the shit you think matters isn't the shit the writers think matters and sometimes there's just no way to hit certain points while still making a good show.

If something didn't matter, they shouldn't have included it in the first place.

But beyond that, I'm not talking about the minor issues like the outrigger. I'm talking about the major issues, like why turning a wheel messes with space/time. They should provide an answer, and it should be something that's at least a little bit interesting. It's not like anybody is asking for an answer grounded in real science. I think we all know that there has to be some 'magic' involved here. But make it more than "I'm going to combine this wheel with the Light and it's going to get me off the island, and I know that because I'm special" which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is a giant cop-out.

Also, the reason I say they come off as douchebags is because of statements like this -

For the show to devolve into running through a checklist of answers, we would have been, honestly, crucified for that version of the show. It's ironic that the episode that's generating so much controversy is one in which we answered questions, but it's not surprising to us. Between what the audience thinks they want and what they will find entertaining - we have tried ot make the show in a way that people would find it entertaining, moving engaging.

I've got no problem with them continuing forward with the plot, adding new twists, and not just running through a series of answers. But it's obnoxious for them to assume that we (as an audience) don't know what we want. I know that I personally watch the show more for answers to the various mysteries than anything else. I think a lot of people feel the same way, judging from everything I've read in this thread over however many years we've been following the show. Is it really too much to ask that they provide satisfying answers and they keep the show interesting at the same time? Is that really so difficult? I don't think so.

[SpaceChampion]

Considering Ab Aeterno was one big checklist, they are being disingenuous.

[delete this account pls]

Why do you assume that he have a name in the first place? His mother didn't think of a second name, and "new mum" obviously had no imagination herself. It was Mother, Jacob and Brother/Son.

That did occur to me, but I think he did/does have a name, and they deliberately held it back. Probably because it has some sort of intended significance (Biblical, or maybe a similar name to another character)

Until we learn what it is, I shall call him Broseph.

ETA; Overall, I'm kind of torn on this episode. I liked parts and disliked others.

[Gertrude]

I'm not bothered that all of the little mysteries aren't being solved, but I'm upset at the poor storytelling. They've had three seasons where they've known the end point. I'd expect the last few seasons to be a little tighter is all. The example Wert pointed out - why introduce it if it's not going to be addressed? Because it was a cool and mysterious, that's why. It had no larger storytelling purpose. I'm not saying everything needs to fit into the larger story and nothing interesting or mysterious can exist for it's own sake, but I feel that it's come down on the side of too much flash and not enough substance. I think this last episode would have worked so much better if we'd seen it in pieces.

The set up between the brothers was ok as far as it went, but these are not the same people/entities we see today. It seems Jacob has learned quite a bit in the intervening years and cultivated an inner peace that sure wasn't evident in his early years. Yes, time, isolation and murdering your brother will do that to a person, but I'd like to see it happen. He also gained some lighthouse building, magic mirror making skills and how he did that, I don't know - he's not the 'special' one. Just like when he was talking to Richard and asked him to be his liaison. Either Jacob had never thought of that idea and jumped on it, or he manipulated Richard into making that suggestion on his own. Either is possible, but we can't know what was intended because the storytelling is so shoddy.

It's odd, because I think they've done a great job with the castaways. There are missteps here and there, but overall, I care about these people and understand their motivations. Jacob and his brother are being shoehorned into the story and their motivations are as unclear as could be.

The game - Mother wants Brother to have it because ... why? No reason, she just loves him I guess. Jacob and brother play it and bond over it, which was nice, but we only get the most cursory philosophical discussion over the game. I get that the black/white represents their opposing outlooks, but we only get a tiny, tiny slice of that. Jacob doesn't even flesh out his ideas that men might be good - just a quick question he doesn't follow up on. MiB doesn't even give him something to think about, like 'Men can be loving and good at times, but overall they are just like mother said'

MiB wants to leave. They did explain that but it doesn't explain everything, as has been noted - he's security/judge/minion - but none of that has been addressed. Jacob is a protector looking for his replacement. Again, ok, but why is he bringing people to the island for MiB to kill at will (see the Blackrock) He didn't have a plan until Richard chose to help him? He's a big proponent of free-will, perhaps because he was forced into the role - I'm just speculating here because we aren't shown how he gets from A to B. We may still get it, but damn - this episode and it's timing sucked balls. They ramped up the action and stakes on the island last time now I almost couldn't care less. They killed the momentum in sideways last week and now I'm just waiting to see how it ties together but am not really excited about it. Horrible, horrible way to build anticipation for the finale.

eta: from their interview

"Across the Sea" was our attempt to say, "Here's why Jacob feels the way he does about people, why the Man in Black feels the way he does about people," and a bit about their childhood. It's as simple as that and as complex as the themes of the show are.

I don't think they showed why the two feel the way they do. I think they failed very badly at that, if you couldn't already tell by my posts.

[Kalbear]

he set up between the brothers was ok as far as it went, but these are not the same people/entities we see today. It seems Jacob has learned quite a bit in the intervening years and cultivated an inner peace that sure wasn't evident in his early years.

He was still quite the dick to Richard. If he got inner peace, it happened in the last 100 years. But really...why the fuck should we care about Jacob? Ooh, he's the asshole guardian of the island who has a gentle touch and apparently keeps methodical lists. Oh, and dooms random people to death so he can get his candidates on the island.

As to the above quote: if they don't want to provide a checklist of answers, fine. They've gone out of their way to do that this season quite a bit though, so saying they don't want to is a bit disingenuous. What I have a problem with is the way they're answering the questions.

For instance: people don't care about who built the donkey wheel, they care about how a donkey wheel makes a person move through space and time. They don't care about the relationship between Jacob and MiB and who was guardian before Jacob, they care about what it means to be the guardian. They continue to answer questions in a particularly uninteresting way (ooh, the statue was destroyed...by a tidal wave and the Black Rock. Nifty) This wouldn't be so problematic had they not made it such a huge deal in the first place.

[Scion of Valyria]

I can understand not liking the episode, but absolute fury? Did the MiB kill your mom? if not than maybe thats a bit of an over reaction to a TV show.

I disagree. I don't care for the medium, just the story. I'd be infuriated if this was how a movie went about, or a novel, a short story, a play, whatever. If you think that's an overreaction, well, I can't really make you feel you otherwise, yeah? It's my reaction, and that of the people I watch the show with. I've spent the past few years very devoted to the story being told, and I was able to stick around because I told myself that this was going to payout. The story needs an ending, they say it's going to be awesome, its going to be, how can it not with all this good material? And then they drop the ball, miserably, this season. If it was once, like just Richard's episode, I'd be more forgiving. But its twice, taking these very mysterious characters, central to alot of the mystery of the island, and tearing them down. It's beyond shoddy storytelling. It's piss-poor storytelling, and just points to them not having a fucking clue whats up with the Island themselves. And that doesn't sit easy for me. Beyond that, it infuriates me.

The only solace I have is that they can still manage to make the present and side worlds end well. And I guess, really, thats what its all about. But it drives me mad to see that the people who've crafted this world's mythology don't even have a clue what that is themselves.

[Mya Stone]

The game - Mother wants Brother to have it because ... why? No reason, she just loves him I guess. Jacob and brother play it and bond over it, which was nice, but we only get the most cursory philosophical discussion over the game. I get that the black/white represents their opposing outlooks, but we only get a tiny, tiny slice of that. Jacob doesn't even flesh out his ideas that men might be good - just a quick question he doesn't follow up on. MiB doesn't even give him something to think about, like 'Men can be loving and good at times, but overall they are just like mother said'

MiB wants to leave. They did explain that but it doesn't explain everything, as has been noted - he's security/judge/minion - but none of that has been addressed. Jacob is a protector looking for his replacement. Again, ok, but why is he bringing people to the island for MiB to kill at will (see the Blackrock) He didn't have a plan until Richard chose to help him? He's a big proponent of free-will, perhaps because he was forced into the role - I'm just speculating here because we aren't shown how he gets from A to B. We may still get it, but damn - this episode and it's timing sucked balls. They ramped up the action and stakes on the island last time now I almost couldn't care less. They killed the momentum in sideways last week and now I'm just waiting to see how it ties together but am not really excited about it. Horrible, horrible way to build anticipation for the finale.

Gert, I'm going to give you my take on things, and you can take it or leave it, as I'm very much in the minority here. ;)

I am of the opinion that Mother set the BIB up to find the game. She had raised him as her own for 13 years. She knew he was inquisitive, and was not the type of boy who would be easily quelled by no answers (like most of the audience, heh). I believe she knew all along that these 2 boys were her salvation. As I've said before, they were both candidates to take over her position...but I think she always knew in her heart that it would never be the MIB as Island Protector, but he would be the one to free her from her bondage. So she set him up to ask more questions, and seek knowledge that she was not willing to give him. She manipulated him into despising her. I liken it to Eloise and Daniel - she always knew she would kill him, and she always knew he had a specific path to walk, but instead of taking a light hand with it, she pushed him willingly down the path.

As far as Jacob is concerned - he was of the opposite thought of humans, but he never lived with them. From afar, they seemed good. But honestly, I think that had nothing to do with him drawing people to the Island. I think he did it to prove to himself (and the MIB) that people had it in them to do the right thing - unlike he, MIB, and Mother. They all chose to do something horrific - Mother killed Claudia and spent the boys lives manipulating them to do her bidding, the MIB ran away and tried to harness the Island's power, and then killed Mother, and Jacob destroyed his brother in a fit of rage. Jacob has had millenia to think about this, and think about the power of choice - he never had one, so he wanted his successors to have one - but on a deeper level, he wanted them to prove to him that when given the choice to choose between good and evil, they would choose differently than he did.

I keep going back to the scene in the statue, when Ben "killed" Jacob. Ben said, "What about me?" and Jacob's response was, "What about you?" People read that as sarcasm, as a taunt...but I always saw him as saying it rather sadly. With hindsight, and seeing how he had been manipulated (he never felt special, or particularly loved - everything he did for Mother he did out of a sense of duty and responsibility), he saw the error of his ways with Ben, and that he had treated Ben much the same way that Mother had treated him - a vicious cycle repeating.

[Kalbear]

Jacob has had millenia to think about this, and think about the power of choice - he never had one, so he wanted his successors to have one

How is making a plane crash and killing 80% of the people on the plane giving anyone a choice?

Was the choice he gave Dogen (come with me or your son dies) much of a choice? Was Ilana? Was his asking Hurley directly? I think that his idea of free will is kind of weak.

It's otherwise interesting to think of FakeMom as this plotting, scheming person. I didn't get that level of competence from her; I genuinely thought that she thought MiB would be 'the one' and had been setting them up for that, and thought Jacob...wasn't. It didn't seem like a lot of this was in her control, one way or another.

[Lightning Lord]

I'm watching episode 15 right now, at about the 35 minute mark and want to just be screaming "ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!! SOLVE THE MYSTERIES!!"