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[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

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Holy shit, that was a good episode!

I'm usually just a lurker but had to post tonight. I was out earlier having drinks for my friends wedding anniversary, and returned home just in time to see tonight's episode live. My Uncle was also here with me, we usually watch the episode on Monday night, but as I was watching it he stayed up too. I've read all of the books and like every one else, am completely obsessed, my Uncle however, has only ever watched the show. I'll have to re-watch the episode sober for clarity, but I was completely drawn in tonight. When Jon, Ygritte et al, were climbing the wall and it started to crack. My heart was in my throat and my mind was racing with the thought that they were going to kill Ygritte there and then. When she made it I just turned to my Uncle and said "That was tense!".

Loving the stuff with Ramsay and Theon. I've been very coy when my Uncle has asked me who this bloke torturing Theon is, but I nearly slipped up tonight with my comments of "ahhh, you lying bastard!" and other such things. A thought did occur to me tonight regarding Theon. It may have been discussed before but does anyone else see Theon/Reek's story as a subtle nod to Smeagol/Gollum?

Brienne and Jaime killed it again. Nikolaj Costa-Waldau really is Jaime Lannister. And I think I'm in love with Brienne. The guy playing Roose Bolton is awesome, who cares if he doesn't whisper and take leech baths? Cannot wait for next week, I just hope a certain version of a certain song is nowhere near that episode.

Diana Rigg continues to be amazing as the Queen of Thorns. When I read the books last year I was an advocate for Dame Maggie the frog to play the role, and was even disappointed when Diana Rigg was announced (my Uncle vouched for her). But she really is great. Also, were they implying that Tywin can't get it up in that scene? Maybe that's why he hates whores, they know his secret....

It was a strange ending and I'm not totally sure how I felt about it. Heartbreaking and confusing to see Sansa crying like that. I missed her scene with Shae due to a call of nature, but did was she crying because she has to marry Tyrion? Because it looked like Littlefinger's ship leaving the docks.

ETA: Forgot to finish that thought. Weird ending with them reaching the summit of The Wall. I think that was a little "fuck you" to book readers from D+D, going from the line that Ramsay said to Theon about happy endings.

Edited by BaronBeefhart

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I HATE that shae was around and refused to leave the room.

On the other hand, she got to watch Tyrion tell someone else he would be marrying her. Ha!

It is interesting that Shae didn't want to leave the room. I could see it if it were someone like Littlefinger, but Tyrion? Seems to be setting up Shae's jealousy down the road.

Something about Peter Dinklage's acting in the scene with Shae and Sansa gave me the impression that Tyrion was thinking that he would find this really funny if it were happening to someone else.

Edited by Newstar

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Wait, what? Am I misreading this? Are you saying there was a scene with them in this episode?? I didn't see anything of the sort, did I miss something??

Also, I see quite a few people having strong opinions against this episode and somehow it seems to me like most of them are from the "don't change anything from the books or you're the biggest sinners ever" camp. I'm very curious to see their reactions to next season, which is supposed to have even bigger deviations and changes from the book.

Shame for you though, I love the books and I love the show, including this episode, which for me was the second strongest of the season.

Quoted for truth

To quote grrm

"Art is not a democracy"

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He saves Brienne and gets captured by meets with Un Cat in the end of bookd and then he is oging to tell Un cat in book 6 that Arya is not dead,

That last part is pure speculation, as for the rest..as I said "nothing significant."

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Wait, what? Am I misreading this? Are you saying there was a scene with them in this episode?? I didn't see anything of the sort, did I miss something??

Also, I see quite a few people having strong opinions against this episode and somehow it seems to me like most of them are from the "don't change anything from the books or you're the biggest sinners ever" camp. I'm very curious to see their reactions to next season, which is supposed to have even bigger deviations and changes from the book.

Shame for you though, I love the books and I love the show, including this episode, which for me was the second strongest of the season.

No...I don't recall a Selmy/Jorah scene either....there was one at the end of E5.

I absolutely agree with you. Small screen has to meet the constraints of time and budget. The show isn't going to waste time on small intricacies when they have to highlight the main plot points. What does it matter whether the Tyrells plan to marry Sansa to Loras or Willas? She's marrying Tyrion anyway.

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There was no way this episode was going to compete with last week's, which was among my favorite in the entire series, but I still liked it. The stuff in King's Landing was good, as was the Jaime/Brienne/Roose bit (though I would have liked to have seen more there.)

I've seen a lot of people complaining about the whitewashing of Tyrion, but it seems to me like no one has been whitewashed to the degree that Cersei has. Most of her worst acts (having Robert's bastards killed, trying to have Tyrion killed during the Blackwater) just get passed off to Joff instead. Unless she was just lying to Tyrion, but it certainly didn't seem that way to me.

I actively dislike TV show-Robb, and sympathize with Edmure far more than I did in the books. If I had felt this way about Robb in the books, the Red Wedding wouldn't have had nearly the impact it did on me.

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After a series of QoT just trouncing smart men, I would have been extremely furious if Tywin had lost too.

I don't like the idea that we're supposed to think he's just checkmated her when the threat he made was the kind you'd expect from Cersei, not Tywin. Accepting that Willas and Garlan don't exist on the show, Highgarden follows daughter before an uncle succession and a King/Hand can conscript the heir to the Reach into the Kingsguard without his consent (yes, Jaime joined when he was an heir but he wasn't forced. It was his choice), what is Tywin doing? Threatening to, in effect, take the Reach away from an ally with a vastly larger army.

It's never spelled out in the show so maybe in GoT the difference in military strength at that time isn't as significant as it is in ASOIAF. They have to at least be equals on the show, right? What if the Tyrells refuse? What if they break off the alliance? What if they join Robb or Stannis or declare that Joffrey is illegitimate and Stannis is a kinslayer and might makes right so everyone bend the knee for King Mace by right of conquest? The only reason he'd want a Loras/Cersei marriage is to strengthen the alliance. Threatening the Queen of Thorns isn't going to do that. I know between this and the Joffrey/Ros scene they're trying to put the Lannisters and Tyrells in conflict again to start setting up Joffrey's murder but this was a poor way to do it.

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I hope people who haven't read the books aren't reading this thread, because I'm not putting things in spoiler tags. The topic says "book spoilers".

I actually loved the Jon and Ygritte parts - thought the climb was amazing, obviously, but watching Ygritte's face as she sees the icy wilderness from that height for the first time in her life, then Jon bringing her to the other side of the wall to see the green south of the seven kingdoms - the place where he is from, was so powerful. The sun comes out, and my heart is breaking knowing what is to come - his betrayal and her death. Oh my poor heart... The kiss seemed sincere. I feel like those two actors have terrific chemistry. Had I never read the books, I would have wanted Jon to run away with Ygritte and live happily ever after. Then again, this aint Lord of the Rings.

Too much Theon, I agree with everyone else. They could have skipped a few episodes for this.

The Osha/Meera part seemed sort of useless except as a segue to the wall climb.

Loved the showdown between Olenna and Tywin. However, I feel the multiple marriage pacts are confusing. I would have liked it better had Sansa gone to her wedding none the wiser, as it was in the books. She's wearing a new gown, then bam - guess what.. its your wedding! And you are marrying the imp! I'd like to know how in the heck Loras is going to become a Kingsguard now. I thought for sure this would be it..

As far as Mel and the "We will meet again" bit - I think she might just be referring to the "girl on a gray horse" thing.. sets viewers up for it only to let them down when we find out its Alys Karstark. Then again, there are so many deviations, who knows what the heck will happen by then.

Also, we can't be certain the eye colors forshadow anything.. Arya kills a few people between now and then. The show hasn't followed eye color rules up to now, so how can we be certain that Daerion won't have green eyes, or the ship insurance guy?

So, who is going to save Gendry?

Edited by Moon-Pale Maiden

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I actively dislike TV show-Robb, and sympathize with Edmure far more than I did in the books. If I had felt this way about Robb in the books, the Red Wedding wouldn't have had nearly the impact it did on me.

I agree. I was expecting him to shout something like "we're screwed because of you and you want me to fix it?".

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Bryan Cogman stated in an interview or on Winteriscoming.net that Loras and Margaery are the only Tyrell kids for now (meaning they can add other Tyrell sons in later if need be), but this episode seemed to rule it out, by Tywin stating that if Loras were Kingsguarded, then succession would fall to Joffrey and Margaery's children. It seemed to rule out any other Tyrell children.

I agree. I was expecting him to shout something like "we're screwed because of you and you want me to fix it?".

Hahaha, when Robb was all, "We're winning every battle, but we're losing this war" I wanted someone to scream at him "And whose fault is that, asshole?!"

Edited by Newstar

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It was a strange ending and I'm not totally sure how I felt about it. Heartbreaking and confusing to see Sansa crying like that. I missed her scene with Shae due to a call of nature, but did was she crying because she has to marry Tyrion? Because it looked like Littlefinger's ship leaving the docks.

Yes, Tyrion went to see her & tell her about their wedding, and then she is shown crying whilst watching LF's ship leave (which she obviously now wishes she was on, seeing as she's marrying Tyrion instead of Loras).

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I'm guessing that Mel takes Gendry back to Dragonstone, and then the Edric Storm plot takes over, where she proposes burning him (or making a shadow baby?) and Davos frees him. Then he goes back to the BwB, but I'm kind of wondering why he would do that (in the show-verse) since they sold him. Maybe he'll go off on his own. Also curious that he's probably going to find out he's Robert's bastard, when in the books he still doesn't know.

I find the Theon stuff difficult to watch, but interesting. I don't object to it being on the show already. It's happening at the this point in the books, but off-screen. By the time we see Theon again, he's fully Reek.

I want more Bran and the Reeds.

The way Ros dies was fucked up. I was actually starting to like her a bit, and thought for sure she was going to fill the Dontos role. She did not deserve that kind of death. No need to sledgehammer the fact that Joffrey is psycho.

Was it really Joff who ordered Tyrion's death in the books? I thought it was Cersei.

Poor Sansa.

I wish I was feeling the Jon Snow plot more. I have to remember in the books, I was still meh on him at this point, so I guess it's only fitting I be meh on him in the show.

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Bryan Cogman stated in an interview or on Winteriscoming.net that Loras and Margaery are the only Tyrell kids for now (meaning they can add other Tyrell sons in later if need be), but this episode seemed to rule it out, by Tywin stating that if Loras were Kingsguarded, then succession would fall to Joffrey and Margaery's children. It seemed to rule out any other Tyrell children.

Last episode it was said that he's the heir to High Garden, so there no chance for Garlan to appear or for Willas to be mentioned sadly.

Edited by Dain Stark

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There was no way this episode was going to compete with last week's, which was among my favorite in the entire series, but I still liked it. The stuff in King's Landing was good, as was the Jaime/Brienne/Roose bit (though I would have liked to have seen more there.)

I've seen a lot of people complaining about the whitewashing of Tyrion, but it seems to me like no one has been whitewashed to the degree that Cersei has. Most of her worst acts (having Robert's bastards killed, trying to have Tyrion killed during the Blackwater) just get passed off to Joff instead. Unless she was just lying to Tyrion, but it certainly didn't seem that way to me.

I actively dislike TV show-Robb, and sympathize with Edmure far more than I did in the books. If I had felt this way about Robb in the books, the Red Wedding wouldn't have had nearly the impact it did on me.

Shocking, as you rarely see Robb in the book so you can paint any pretty picture of him that you want. Th reality is that book Robb broke his marriage vows after being comforted by Jeyne because he just found out his little brothers died. So, he was so grief stricken that he got a boner and screwed Jeyne Westerling. Then said oh shit, I screwed her....welp I guess I have to marry her or I'll feel like I dishonored her, even though she willingly slept with Robb. Yes, I can really sympathize with that over marrying someone I found attractive, got to know and fell in love with any day of the week.

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That George is fine with it (we should qualify that by noting that we mean fine in a broad sense; at the level of individual details, there are things he isn't necessarily in agreement with on the show) doesn't really mean anyone else has to be. It's a personal thing, isn't it?

Does make one wonder about that recent meeting with George in Santa Fe.

This time Dan and Dave brought Bryan along.

I figured season 4 would be blocked out by now ...

The cut and paste with Gendry I was expecting...

It's a long novel with a lot happening and trying to combine characters and include slices from the kitchen sink are showing a strain. Like Season 2 this episode , seems, to show me Dave and Dan are not taking enough think through time with an episode. Anxious to get to episode 9?

As usual the good acting and production values make up for some ragged narrative plotting.

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Yes, Tyrion went to see her & tell her about their wedding, and then she is shown crying whilst watching LF's ship leave (which she obviously now wishes she was on, seeing as she's marrying Tyrion instead of Loras).

Cheers, I thought that's what it was.

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I'm guessing that Mel takes Gendry back to Dragonstone, and then the Edric Storm plot takes over, where she proposes burning him (or making a shadow baby?) and Davos frees him. Then he goes back to the BwB, but I'm kind of wondering why he would do that (in the show-verse) since they sold him. Maybe he'll go off on his own. Also curious that he's probably going to find out he's Robert's bastard, when in the books he still doesn't know.

I find the Theon stuff difficult to watch, but interesting. I don't object to it being on the show already. It's happening at the this point in the books, but off-screen. By the time we see Theon again, he's fully Reek.

I want more Bran and the Reeds.

The way Ros dies was fucked up. I was actually starting to like her a bit, and thought for sure she was going to fill the Dontos role. She did not deserve that kind of death. No need to sledgehammer the fact that Joffrey is psycho.

Was it really Joff who ordered Tyrion's death in the books? I thought it was Cersei.

Poor Sansa.

I wish I was feeling the Jon Snow plot more. I have to remember in the books, I was still meh on him at this point, so I guess it's only fitting I be meh on him in the show.

He won't be with the brotherhood under dondarion. He will be with Arya'd mom so it would make sense for him to be there.

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Does make one wonder about that recent meeting with George in Santa Fe.

This time Dan and Dave brought Bryan along.

I figured season 4 would be blocked out by now ...

The cut and paste with Gendry I was expecting...

It's a long novel with a lot happening and trying to combine characters and include slices from the kitchen sink are showing a strain. Like Season 2 this episode , seems, to show me Dave and Dan are not taking enough think through time with an episode. Anxious to get to episode 9?

As usual the good acting and production values make up for some ragged narrative plotting.

One of the htings Bryan said that I found fascinating is that knowing what George is planning means they can take characters on side adventures as long as they bring them back at the right time and in the right place as they are required.

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I'm wondering about the whitewashing of Cersei too. Laying everything at Joffrey's door will certainly make the TV audience hate him more (as if we need any more reason after tonight) but what about when we really need to hate Cersei? Humanizing her is taking place too soon, IMO.

One thing about the Mandon Moore order being put down to Joffrey- I've always been convinced that LF was behind that. Now with Ros, we have a proved connection between LF and Joff.

Also, am I the only one who has complete confidence that Davos will save Gendry?

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