Mlle. Zabzie

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About Mlle. Zabzie

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    Well-Informed Doorstop
  • Birthday 08/25/1977

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  1. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    And as many have pointed out in previous versions of the thread, there are many versions and strands of feminism, and some of them come near to religious movements with sacred texts, doctrine and dogma. And that is unfortunate. But it isn't everything that is going on. Every movement has some of that. People like to "belong" and part of belonging is creating a community with rules and mores. Sometimes a reminder of goals is important.
  2. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    Thanks - interesting perspective. I wonder if it is more that the consciousness is expressed differently and in ways that earlier generations of feminists don't necessarily value, as @brook was suggesting. The public discussion of women's bodies (as if the most important thing about them) is an important thing to add to this conversation. Thanks for bringing it up.
  3. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    People opposed to the goals of the feminist movement have done a good job of coopting the term "feminist" so that it largely has negative connotations (helped along, I may add, by some soi-disant feminists of the second wave variety, I believe based on some of the knowledge I have picked up here). Mind you, I don't think it would have mattered what the group called itself - the Rainbow Omnibus Unicorn Snugglpants movement, with the same goals, would have had the same issues ("the ROUS? I don't believe in them")). Which, to take a giant leap from A to Z, shows you the policing of women's language and participation in the public sphere.
  4. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    This is a good point - there is a "standard of living" trap that systemically may keep a woman in an abusive relationship. And there is also a class piece to it that others have touched on in threads on DV - one convinces oneself that it doesn't happen to "our kind of people"....and so one hides it.
  5. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    Thanks Xray. The economic and class issues are the hardest to discuss IMO because they cut across groups in ways that we are not trained to see or acknowledged. Would appreciate links, but whenever you have the time. So, while I agree that I detest the "working mother" appellation - it reinforces the idea that only women have two jobs, one that pays and the other, parenting, that doesn't - I disagree with your two categories. Or, put differently, it's more of a ven diagram (and applies to men too!) - with women who have to work and women who want to work having a (probably pretty large) overlap. Now, there's probably another category of "women who want to work but can't afford it/don't think they can afford it because of the opportunity cost of childcare" and another category of "women who want to work but not in the job they are in." Separately, what about the depiction of women in other pop culture? Thanks - this is more eloquent than I was being. Thank you for this. It's that discussion of the structural problems - in particular those that make women look at their future career prospects v male partners' and make choices about long term careers, that is very interesting to me. I think that pervades the discussion even up to very high income levels. As you say, often the focus is survival within existing circumstances - how can you worry about changing the world when you are just trying to make rent (or not get hit, or whatever).
  6. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    Let me give it a go - trying to multitask, which means I'm being incoherent in two different places: Here is the most problematic quote: "Conway said women increasingly have opportunities for roles in government and politics but added that there are limits because of the choices they have to make. She recalled discussions about what role she could play in Trump’s administration, remarking that senior campaign officials would say, “I know you have four kids but …” “I said there’s nothing that comes after the ‘but’ that makes any sense to me so don’t even try. Like what is the but?” she said. “But they’ll eat Cheerios for the rest of the day? Nobody will brush their teeth again until I get home?” “And I do politely mention to them the question isn’t would you take the job, the male sitting across from me who’s going to take a big job in the White House. The question is would you want your wife to,” she continued. “Would you want the mother of children to? You really see their entire visage change. It’s like, ‘Oh, no, they wouldn’t want their wife to take that job.’ But it’s, it’s all good.” Slate reports this as her saying she wouldn't take the job at all - I actually don't read it that broadly, but the point to me is that she is coming from a place of privilege with a LOT of money and from circles that I know pretty darn well. There is an ethos that the (highly accomplished) women manage everything for a family (including by throwing money at a problem so that they can be "ladies who lunch", but I digress), and the men work (often very hard), and it is a status symbol to arrange one's life as such. (And the women in these relationships to be clear do not think they are anti-feminist, but rather beyond feminism). Separately, on the less well off side, engaging with feminist thought can seem ... frivolous. Basic needs are hardly being met, so whether someone asked you to get coffee at a meeting seems, well, irrelevant. Both attitudes hold back feminist thought which is...wait for it...largely confined in some ways to the bourgeois. *summon Sologdin*. ETA: @mankytoes would like you to stay - don't want an echo chamber in here. It's not for the faint of heart (like the US politics thread). I am not personally interested in how anyone feels as a result of the posts (except maybe in a meta sociological way), but maybe you could comment on my latest (which is still incoherent) and/or perhaps how women are depicted in something near and dear to our nerdy little hearts - scifi and fantasy?
  7. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    So, I want to change the subject. I want to talk about Kellyanne Conway's remarks at the Politico event yesterday. I have so many different ways that I could go with this. And there is part of me that just can't even. But I don't want this to be a pile on about Kellyanne or turn this into a Trump debate here. What I do want to talk about is the intersection of money and feminist thought. For those who watch The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt (fabulous show) it reminds me of the character who has an advanced classics degree from Princeton but spends her day ordering stationery for the family dog. I'm sure there is work on this, but it seems to me that there are extremes - the very wealthy on one end, and the not so much on the other where feminist thought is less than not valued. In both cases it is seen as unnecessary (in one case because there are other things to worry about, in the other because there isn't anything to worry about) and threatening. I see it with some male partners here - their wives stay home and they are quite blunt that they could not and would not do this job if their wives didn't handle EVERYTHING else. Bringing it back to Kellyanne, George, her husband, is a litigation partner in the most profitable law firm in the country - Wachtell. Wachtell is more like an investment bank, and they are well known for having an ethos that includes a sadomasochistic work ethic. It gives one a skewed view of the world if one is pulling in $10 million a year and billing 3000 hours a year on a consistent basis. On the other end, thinking about people I know in rural NC, they honestly have other things to worry about. Real things like enough food, mortgages, etc. So all of this seems....insultingly irrelevant. Discuss?
  8. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    That's fair - I knew exactly the phenomenon. It's the same thing when male colleagues make an excuse for not being available for something because they have to "babysit" their own children. Eff that noise. They get no cookie from me for that.
  9. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    @mankytoes what kind of world would you want to live in if you were a woman? Or put differently, what structural societal changes do you think would be beneficial?
  10. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    Lily - to be fair, I have the maternal instincts of a rattlesnake, and I apparently give off that vibe. Neither children, nor parents of children, tend to approach me in public looking for approval or otherwise (my own and my niece excepted). There's a lot of rage here because there are a lot of reasons to rage. If I had a dollar for: Every time someone asks my corporate partner if his "tax guy" is on AFTER I've introduced myself. Every wolf whistle, "baby smile", comment on my appearance Every time I am apologized to by a man for cursing in my presence Every time I have been asked to make coffee, make the lunch reservations, buy the gift, whatever Every time I have been shoehorned into a client presentation for "diversity" (tbc, NOT DIVERSE) Every time I have said something, it has been ignored, and a man has said it 3 minutes later and it is suddenly brilliant (it was so bad on one deal we joked about making tee shirts) Every time (pre third kid) that I wasn't drinking at an event that someone asked me if I was pregnant (that may say more about the alcoholism of lawyers tbh, but it really annoyed me) Every time I've heard that other women are really the problem I could probably buy a car. I want real money, HOUSE money for: The time a male partner told me I had a B+ intellect and he'd only promoted me because I was a woman but it had been a mistake (this was right after he was being forced to retire - yes I have his clients now; yes they are happy) The time a man grabbed me and exposed himself The time I had to get authorities involved after being stalked by an employer (from a school-sponsored job) who assumed because I was polite I must be "into him" as much as he was 'into me'. He sent emails. That was helpful. The time I met a client out for a drink and he assumed it was a date And some other stuff too, that it's not worth going into here. Point is, we've all got lists and lists of this stuff and more. A lot of this stuff is just background noise in our lives, and we have to spend that much more emotional energy on a day to day basis filtering out the noise to find the signal of our life and it can be exasperatingly exhausting. ETA: And I haven't even TOUCHED the stuff I see with my kids. That's a whole separate post.
  11. TTTNE CDLXVI - Return to Castle Spam-a-lot

    Happy birthday Buckwheat!
  12. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    Please understand that this is deeply personal and coming from lived experiences for all of us. There are going to be some tough reactions here and it's probably worthwhile to take those tough reactions as they are meant - not as personal affronts but rather as a build up of frustration that they aren't being listened to (anywhere). On nature v. nurture, I have 3 kids, including twins. They are all very different and have been from birth. That's nature. But the fact that my son will plays with stuffed animals (we don't have many dolls for whatever reason but he plays with them at school) and loves to dress up (in all kinds of things), and one of my daughters loves superheros - that's nurture because we have signaled as parents that all toys in our house are to be played with and that various things are cool or not (which are largely influenced by our eclectic interests - we have a LOT of legos and they know way too much about Star Wars). My children will think it is normal for dads to be involved and nurturing parents because honestly, I am lacking in the sensitivity department, and my husband is not. And strangely, that stuff gets passed down - my own father (and I'm older than you are, I'm guessing by a bit) was a very involved parent, as was my grandfather (and now we're really in a time machine).
  13. Feminism - Post-apocalypse version

    So my view is that Mulan suffers from the "exceptional" woman problem - the other women in the story actually don't come off so well. That bothers me (and bothers me about a lot of Disney movies, actually) - the fact that she had to pretend to be a man and succeed at war man-type stuff to prove awesomeness kind of bugs me. Rapunzel brains her tower invader with a frying pan, and does her own thing - what she wants to do, which is to go see the lanterns, and crucially does it while being herself. It's more self-actualized. Of course, the other woman in the story with a major role is a child abusing witch, desperate to stay young so there's that. Both stories have problematic love stories intertwined, but less problematic than, say Snow White - at least they get to know the guy! Frozen and Brave are just better on all this stuff.
  14. Me too - the French version is beautiful - same with Agatha, which has similar (but worse) connotations in English for me.