HBO's Westworld- Enter the maze [spoilers]

[Theda Baratheon]

Just caught up on last few pages and I disagree with quite a few of you in this thread. I don't think MiB views the hosts like Logan does AT ALL. He views them as trapped, stuck in looks and in that regard he has some pity for them but he also knows exactly that killing them isn't final, they're repaired and they come back, doomed to re-enter their loops and I think he sees potential in them, I think he enjoys having conversations with them, testing them...And I think most of the time they disappoint him but every now and again they don't (snake lady) and by serving them up such brutality on a place hes almost daring them to break their loops, to act "out of character" and I think he genuinely wants to get to the bottom of Arnold's mystery and he wants the hosts to become fully self aware. I don't think he realizes that the hosts are having reveries though (Ford's specific idea, if you remember) so he doesnt know yet that some hosts are starting to remember him killing them. I don't think he'd be so into that. He doesn't just kill, each death serves a purpose or gets him closer to where he needs to be or eliminates and obstacle and he's "running out of time" and he's urgent in a way that seems bigger than just this one vacation. Surely if he's so rich he can go right back into the park when his time is up and pick up where he left of but no...he's pitted against something and I think it's ford. Theyre on a race to get to the bottom of Arnold's secret...

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Just caught up on last few pages and I disagree with quite a few of you in this thread. I don't think MiB views the hosts like Logan does AT ALL. He views them as trapped, stuck in looks and in that regard he has some pity for them but he also knows exactly that killing them isn't final, they're repaired and they come back, doomed to re-enter their loops and I think he sees potential in them, I think he enjoys having conversations with them, testing them...And I think most of the time they disappoint him but every now and again they don't (snake lady) and by serving them up such brutality on a place hes almost daring them to break their loops, to act "out of character" and I think he genuinely wants to get to the bottom of Arnold's mystery and he wants the hosts to become fully self aware. I don't think he realizes that the hosts are having reveries though (Ford's specific idea, if you remember) so he doesnt know yet that some hosts are starting to remember him killing them. I don't think he'd be so into that. He doesn't just kill, each death serves a purpose or gets him closer to where he needs to be or eliminates and obstacle and he's "running out of time" and he's urgent in a way that seems bigger than just this one vacation. Surely if he's so rich he can go right back into the park when his time is up and pick up where he left of but no...he's pitted against something and I think it's ford. Theyre on a race to get to the bottom of Arnold's secret...

Maybe.  But he kills them with no thought at all, even enjoying it, and mocks them before he kills them, AND he did torture the guy who he eventually scalped.  So, while I agree w/some of what you say, especially his behavior in the last episode, but this is still fairly inconsistent with his earlier actions.  

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

William and Logen could also have opted for different pain settings?

I was thinking that, too. William, being new, may have left it a default setting, but Logan knew better and changed it.

[Theda Baratheon]

40 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Maybe.  But he kills them with no thought at all, even enjoying it, and mocks them before he kills them, AND he did torture the guy who he eventually scalped.  So, while I agree w/some of what you say, especially his behavior in the last episode, but this is still fairly inconsistent with his earlier actions.  

Yeah he does mock them and I think he is contemptuous of them (but pities them at the same time) he knows they're gonna be repaired and will forget about it all and loop again. I honestly think he has NO IDEA about the New reveries. So whilst he does enjoy he murderous baddie role, I still think he's been in it for a deeper meaning, to unearth something, something bigger than just himself and some dark impulses. I think he's been following these clues and trail of bread crumbs for a long ass time and Ford has noticed and thus MiB is "running out of time" so he views killing the hosts as a way to get through story lines quicker so in some ways he IS like Logan but Logan would never reap any satisfaction from conversing and testing the limits of a host, MiB does. You can tell he genuinely likes Snake Lady and admires her. He knows these characters all programmed, every single bit of their dialogue is planned but he's testig the limits of their improversation, he is WAY off storyline...he's probing for something so the murders he's committed, whilst he might have enjoyed them in game, aren't committed Sheerly or  even Primarily out of a sick kick he gets out of it. They're to further him on his path down the maze  

[karaddin]

Watch the first episode again and tell me we aren't meant to think he raped Delores. I've conceded that it might be an act, but to me there was a very strong implication that whether he did that night or not he had previously.

One other possibility is that they decided to change the direction of his character after the pilot (it was shot earlier right?) and that explains the disconnect between how he seems in that episode and the rest since.

[Ariadne23]

3 hours ago, red snow said:

I'm glad you are still looking for arguably good clues. I'd still be doing the same if they hadn't made it impossible for me to believe it anymore. Which is what I was just saying about being angry about being esentially lied to as it's stopped me from bothering to look for those clues.

I've watched them all a second time utterly out of order at this point, and all at once in the first place, and that helps. It's hard for showrunners to get how that week-between pacing affects viewer expectation. Plus, I think they are getting sort of cute with the "we don't know if she's with a guest or not" thing. 

25 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Watch the first episode again and tell me we aren't meant to think he raped Delores. I've conceded that it might be an act, but to me there was a very strong implication that whether he did that night or not he had previously.

I think you're meant to think it watching the first episode, and meant to question it later. What he says to her later indicates a previous association, but not necessarily a violent one.

There's a real question of how he knew to scalp Kissy that is totally unanswered, and the person we know he pulled that knife on before then is Dolores.

Having said all that, this is written by the "love is the 4th dimension" guy. But I'm hooked, really loving it, and I avoided it for awhile because I was concerned about the possibility of the portrayal of sexy sexual violence, which I do not like one bit.

[HexMachina]

24 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Watch the first episode again and tell me we aren't meant to think he raped Delores. I've conceded that it might be an act, but to me there was a very strong implication that whether he did that night or not he had previously.

One other possibility is that they decided to change the direction of his character after the pilot (it was shot earlier right?) and that explains the disconnect between how he seems in that episode and the rest since.

Not seen this weeks episode yet but even when Dolores was glitching last week we got pretty strong implications of what the MiB did to her, since she recalled it in the barn as she was about to be raped. So yeah pretty sure he did.

[Cas Stark]

Well, let's face it, she primarily exists to be harmed, to watch Teddy die and her parents die and then be raped, even to the point that the story has other hosts raping her.  Its unclear whether she offers consensual gratitude sex to any guests who save her, since we haven't seen the loop play out that way, but probably yes, though rape seems the primary attracting based on what Ford said about her.

[Astromech]

20 minutes ago, Ariadne23 said:

I've watched them all a second time utterly out of order at this point, and all at once in the first place, and that helps. It's hard for showrunners to get how that week-between pacing affects viewer expectation. Plus, I think they are getting sort of cute with the "we don't know if she's with a guest or not" thing. 

I think you're meant to think it watching the first episode, and meant to question it later. What he says to her later indicates a previous association, but not necessarily a violent one.

There's a real question of how he knew to scalp Kissy that is totally unanswered, and the person we know he pulled that knife on before then is Dolores.

Having said all that, this is written by the "love is the 4th dimension" guy. But I'm hooked, really loving it, and I avoided it for awhile because I was concerned about the possibility of the portrayal of sexy sexual violence, which I do not like one bit.

I'm under the impression he is being fed information or at least vague clues by someone in Delos. Not sure if that's part of his "vacation package" or whether it's a corporate spy. It's clear from the last episode and the pyrotechnics request, the MiB has some way of communicating with the staff or they are almost omnisciently following him.

I think you are absolutely correct about the possible rape of Delores. The writers are pulling our legs and completely inverting everything from the film Westworld. I'm expecting Teddy to be the villain and MiB to be some kind of hero or anti-hero. 

[RumHam]

3 minutes ago, karaddin said:

One other possibility is that they decided to change the direction of his character after the pilot (it was shot earlier right?)

Yes, the pilot was shot earlier. On the other hand there were re-shoots, though I'm not totally sure Harris participated in them. 

It's also worth noting that they actually had to halt production 2/3 of the way through shooting so the writers could finish the story. Supposedly that was to make it a series that could continue for five seasons instead of being a limited thing. To that end they may have re-shot some scenes from the earlier episodes in an effort to add a larger plot arc. People have pointed out that the Man in Black's unwilling traveling companion's hair changes length considerably between some shots. So they did re-shoot some of their interactions once production resumed. 

[Baitac]

I wonder if the MiB is playing a game of Simon. In order to advance his knowledge, he has to repeat prior acts, in a certain order. He was very surprised about meeting the woman with the snake tattoo. At the same time, it looked like he had done the prison escape bit before and knew what Hector wanted. I like how the little girl is a very specific "program" that provides clues to those who are aware of the maze. 

I don't think the MiB pities any hosts. He's annoyed by them as he has to "go through them" to progress his story. It's an awful story though if it goes, go to town, shoot the sheriff, follow Dolores, kill her parents, shoot Teddy, rape Dolores, jump to torture and scalp guy, and so on. After thirty years, I would think he knows the story well enough that he would have the freedom not torture, not to rape. He just wants to see the last page of the story for the thrill of if. It's been thirty long years. He may say he's doing it for Arnold's legacy, but I think he's a bored billionaire, and an asshole at that.

[Guy Kilmore]

On 10/23/2016 at 9:53 PM, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

I wonder if the MiB is the observer from the board. 

That is my thought.

ETA:  How much do we know if all of those conversations between Dolores and Bernard are real?  She can have memories of Bernard, how much is that the "voice from the top of the pyramid" providing her an inner dialogue?

[Theda Baratheon]

7 hours ago, karaddin said:

Watch the first episode again and tell me we aren't meant to think he raped Delores. I've conceded that it might be an act, but to me there was a very strong implication that whether he did that night or not he had previously.

One other possibility is that they decided to change the direction of his character after the pilot (it was shot earlier right?) and that explains the disconnect between how he seems in that episode and the rest since.

I got the impression he had played the hero storyline before and rescued her, thus sleeping with her that way. I honestly don't think he raped her. Someone a few pages ago said the first episode was showing us characters in one light and the rest of the episodes have been subverting that. I think he is Cruel to the hosts in the sense he mocks them and looks down on them as lesser than human BUT confusingly I also think he kinda likes them and genuinely is testing their limits before they crack. He said in an earlier episode they're most real with the simple emotions like anger and grief. He's daring them to come to life.

Like...don't misunderstand me here Im not saying he's a nice dude! He still enjoys killing and playing the villain but I don't think he's solely fueled by psychotic urges or anything I think his main purpose is working through the clues and navigating his way around the world/map for hints of something more and to do that he has to play certain roles, work through certain storylines in a particular way. He didnt just scalp anybody, he scalpted the bloke with a map inside his head, he know? He's calculated unlike Logan's just random killing 

[Theda Baratheon]

3 hours ago, Guy Kilmore said:

That is my thought.

ETA:  How much do we know if all of those conversations between Dolores and Bernard are real?  She can have memories of Bernard, how much is that the "voice from the top of the pyramid" providing her an inner dialogue?

I think Bernard is to Dolores what Arnold is to a growing number of the awakening hosts. She thinks she's dreaming and talking to God or someone that can control/has authority over her but they're either just memories or sneaky programming from bernard so it's impossible to get caught 'helping' or prompting Dolores. 

What do we think of Bernard btw everyone? Good guy? Bad guy?

[Ariadne23]

4 hours ago, Guy Kilmore said:

ETA:  How much do we know if all of those conversations between Dolores and Bernard are real?  She can have memories of Bernard, how much is that the "voice from the top of the pyramid" providing her an inner dialogue?

Bernard complains about not getting much sleep to Theresa. And he tells Dolores once that she better get back. I think they're speaking at night, and that it's actually happening. I think it's outside of HQ. It would make sense for there to be stations scattered around the park. Maybe there is one below ground by the farm.

OTOH, it sounds like the voice she's hearing when she's awake is Bernard's. So maybe he is functioning as her "God"/the other house of her bicameral mind.

I'm expecting Ford to eventually tell us conscious beings create the idea of God, and then kill God (whether you're more inclined toward Jesus or Nietzsche, it's there), and Arnold let himself be the sacrificed God or some such.

[Cas Stark]

I think Bernard is a good guy, though I haven't let go of my thoughts he could be a robot.  And I still think Ford is doing some kind of recreation around the critical failure, which sounds like Arnold's inner monologue made hosts think god was talking to them, e.g. the burnt church and some of them went nuts, e.g. Wyatt.  Whomever said that Wyatt may be an old host brought back that seems to make sense since the snake woman already had the snake tattoo before he introduced Wyatt..unless he just gave it a different back story, like he did Teddy, which would kinda suck.  It's really hard to tell at this point if the show is going to be able to align all of this stuff in a reasonable manner or if it will have to be hand waved away in the end like Lost.

[Fez]

4 hours ago, Ariadne23 said:

I'm expecting Ford to eventually tell us conscious beings create the idea of God, and then kill God (whether you're more inclined toward Jesus or Nietzsche, it's there), and Arnold let himself be the sacrificed God or some such.

You, uh, just play Xenogears for the first time or something?

[Mark Antony]

4 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

What do we think of Bernard btw everyone? Good guy? Bad guy?

If he isn't a host I think he's a decent enough guy but his conversations with Delores seem pretty dangerous and probably won't lead anywhere good. 

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Mark Antony said:

If he isn't a host I think he's a decent enough guy but his conversations with Delores seem pretty dangerous and probably won't lead anywhere good. 

I think his intentions are good/curiousity driven but I think he's going to let the genie out the bottle and cause a bit of chaos. He has a Prometheus vibe going on - although Ford/Arnold may fit that bill too. I think Ford/Arnold are maybe higher up the chain in terms of god comparisons.

[Theda Baratheon]

By the way snake lady is the same blonde lady that goes mad in the flashback when Ford is talking about Arnold. She didn't have a snake tattoo then.