dooog Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I don't want to get too bogged down in theories, which at this point there are thousands of possibilities, but just a couple of things. I think the pilot and initial episodes have deliberately subverted our expectations of certain characters with the whole good guy bad guy thing. Ford was the kindly old man, only able to confide in hosts and Bernard and under pressure from middle management and the money men and it felt as if he could be vulnerable, while the Man in Black was depicted as an invincible ruthless psychopath torturing and tormenting the hosts. But now, in a way we've seen Ford's gentle mask slip and just how much power and control he has at his disposal. From an innocuous throwaway comment we see that Harris/ MIB could well be a good skin in the real world, who apparently had a friendship or association with Arnold, and it's looking as if Ford could well have had a hand in his death. May as well throw in a silly theory / prediction why not eh... Arnold became convinced that the hosts could be self aware and exercise free will and put it to the ultimate test against a host we're familiar with, say Dolores or Wild Bill, the host failed, killed Arnold, and Ford rigged the game in some way. Just to add... Hopkins' acting was phenomenal in that last episode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariadne23 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Why does Bernard mention the maze? Isn't it a thing that is particular to the game the MiB is playing, i.e., Arnold's game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 36 minutes ago, Ariadne23 said: Why does Bernard mention the maze? Isn't it a thing that is particular to the game the MiB is playing, i.e., Arnold's game? I think the maze is a metaphor for self-awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJ Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Is it possible MiB is trying to help the hosts? He understands that in their current state, they're basically disposable. He's trying to find the maze and unlock their consciousness - bringing them to a state of full awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baitac Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I don't care if the MiB is a philanthropist or not. The fact that for 30 years he has been raping and torturing Dolores makes him a monster to me. I don't see how his behavior toward Dolores advances his quest to solve the maze. Also, there's no way that Ford is not aware of the MiB's motivation and game playing MO. Have we seen other people being scalped? I wonder if only that one host has/had the maze diagram on its scalp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 35 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said: I think the maze is a metaphor for self-awareness. I think so, too. 18 minutes ago, AndrewJ said: Is it possible MiB is trying to help the hosts? He understands that in their current state, they're basically disposable. He's trying to find the maze and unlock their consciousness - bringing them to a state of full awareness. It is very possible. He did say he was keeping Arnold's legacy going or something like that. I am also thinking MiB may be Arnold's son. Sure Ed Harris is only about a decade younger than Hopkins, but in the first episode Ford mentions, without any specifics, that all diseases have been cured, and that even the weakest can be kept alive. So what if Ford is much older than what Hopkins looks. Arnold gets himself killed about 30 years ago, but who knows for how many years the two worked on developing the park. The park is a massive undertaking, it could have taken decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Haha, speaking with the online host, Aeden, on the Discover Westworld website is amusing. Throw out questions about certain characters and places and see how the host reacts. Ask about Arnold and the maze. https://discoverwestworld.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 7 minutes ago, Astromech said: Haha, speaking with the online host, Aeden, on the Discover Westworld website is amusing. Throw out questions about certain characters and places and see how the host reacts. Ask about Arnold and the maze. https://discoverwestworld.com/ Wow, the part about Arnold and the maze were funny. But some other interesting stuff, too. Spoiler Hosts are programmed with a good Samaritan reflex which kicks in when a guest is in actual danger, including from another guest. And asking about laws yields the response "There are no laws at Westworld that cannot be broken. Next question." Interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay B. Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 How about them "arresting" a guest to slow him down. I'd be pretty sour if I had to spend a night in some fake jail after spending that much money for this experience, and that's without even knowing it was just to buy the workers some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJ Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 2 hours ago, Baitac said: I don't care if the MiB is a philanthropist or not. The fact that for 30 years he has been raping and torturing Dolores makes him a monster to me. But the MiB views Dolores the same way you and I view a blow up doll. There are people in our world that have sex with blow up dolls. The dolls don't give consent - so are those people guilty of rape? I know that sounds like a silly, facetious question. But that's exactly how the MiB (and Logan) see Dolores. And I read something a while ago where a Japanese guy went to court to get permission to marry his blow up doll (actually... i think it was a "love pillow"). And Logan basically sees William's attempts to befriend Delores as no different to how we would tend to view that guy. For what it's worth, I pretty much agree with you. I don't see Dolores as a blow up doll at all and my emotive response is to see the MiB's behaviour as utterly despicable. But I can understand how he could see it very differently. The situation is, of course, complicated by the fact that Dolores is struggling towards consciousness. And no - an android is not exactly the same as a blow up doll. But there's a spectrum: from blow up doll, to simple robot, to complex robot without consciousness, to complex robot with consciousness, to human. And somewhere along that line it stops being acceptable to treat it as a disposable thing. And the exploration of that is at the heart of the show.. Question: is the MiB's actions any worse than a guest that has sex with a hooker in town? Neither really is able to consent - one is just programmed to say "not much of a rind on you - let's go upstairs" and the other to say "no... please... stop". But neither really had any say in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 4 hours ago, Baitac said: I don't care if the MiB is a philanthropist or not. The fact that for 30 years he has been raping and torturing Dolores makes him a monster to me. I don't see how his behavior toward Dolores advances his quest to solve the maze. Also, there's no way that Ford is not aware of the MiB's motivation and game playing MO. Have we seen other people being scalped? I wonder if only that one host has/had the maze diagram on its scalp. Yeah, the idea that just because he does good works elsewhere then his desire to act out savagery is washed away bothers me quite a bit. And yes, even if the hosts were just the glorified dolls that the guests think they are I consider the desire to act out that kind of sexual violence on robots that are convincingly human in appearance and reaction to be utterly repulsive. I'd be extremely put off by anyone who wanted to exercise in those kinds of rape fantasy even in current games, but with that? I'd be afraid to know you. I guess one element that some may be missing through their lack of experience is that frequently the people who do monstrous things to women *are* those that do good works elsewhere and are liked by others. This isn't just a hypothetical kind of thing, a rapist doesn't become a good person just because they've dedicated their life to charity work elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 7 hours ago, The BlackBear said: I think Ford is very much interested in it. From his speech we know Arnold was the much more misanthropic of the two, he was pessimistic about people, whereas Ford was more hopeful. Ford has clearly come to be more disdainful of people, he sums up Bernard's child loss fairly succinctly, and is chillingly brutal in destroying Theresa's recalled villa. I think he has decided to finish Arnolds work. Interesting. So both could be interested in immortality with Ford interested in human immortality and perhaps Arnold claiming humans weren't worth it - let's allow the AI to gain sentience and immortality? Maybe Ford's opinion is changing with time - he certainly holds his financial backers with a similar level of contempt. After reading the screenrant theory about other worlds those bulldozers definitely had a terraforming vibe. I also need to watch the scene with Delores looking at the moon as I thought I saw lights there (this would be odd on the light side of the moon though?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbunting Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 This show has quickly becoming my favorite one on right now. It has a little bit of everything I like in a show. Great actors/actresses, good/bad/gray characters, sex/nudity, violence/action, thought provoking scenarios, interesting visual landscapes, plots that aren't what they appear etc. I loved the nod to gamers last night when Logan? picked up the gun and said, oooh upgrade! At first I also saw him as being an ass but now starting to see him as somewhat less of an ass. He absolutely sees the hosts as just robots/scenery. Not one bit human, and he treats them as such, like a person would do in a video game, hence the giddiness when he found the "easter egg". I never cared one bit when gunning someone down in Grand theft auto, why would I? The same goes for the MiB, he views them as what they are. The interesting thing will be what happens if one of them realizes that some of the hosts are having memories of what has happened to them before. That should change things entirely for them. I have always thought that Bernard and Delores' talks were not face to face. She has worn clothes every time but one, the opening scene she was not clothed and I think there was more than just Bernard present. No other host is clothed unless that is why they are there so it always seemed odd. Ok, Ford. What the heck is his overall idea and plan? Also, why does he possess Jedi like control over the hosts? All other people have to use pads or voice commands to control the hosts and Ford just waves a finger or even just thinks something and it happens. He was controlling hundreds of hosts at once. Any chance he is a host? I doubt it, just looking for a way for him to signal or control hosts that we aren't seeing yet. MiB definitely not a host, glad that has been put to bed. I wonder if Arnold maybe was "saved" by his foundation prior to his death at the park? Or maybe he and MiB were friends and MiB knew Arnold was in danger or knew he was on to something and now is trying to find evidence? IDK, but that what makes this a good show. Most shows are so transparent that ten minutes into it you know how the rest of it will happen. Arnold, still think he is either not dead or his mind is in a host. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Arch-MaesterPhilip said: I wonder if the MiB is the observer from the board. It's either him or one of Logan or William... On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 10:15 PM, Fez said: Also, is Delores actually 'dreaming' when she's talking to Bernard? That is, is it some kind of remote conversation and she isn't physically there with him? Because if she is physically there I don't see how she would've gotten away from Logan and William during the night for that talk at the start; unless those talks are actually happening in a different timeline from her time with William. I've got to wonder if this isn't the case. I was actually jarred out of the opening moments because she was in a conversation with Bernard, then suddenly back where she left off last week. It's either in her head or... 12 hours ago, Darzin said: I think many of these conversations are non linear. I'm not sure the conversations are happening chronologically with what we see. ...the conversations with Bernard are happening either before or after the actions of the show. He's either working with her in those conversations to continue what Arnold started, or he's attempting to piece together what went wrong in the park after the fact. Or he's really Arnold and doesn't know it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 11 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said: It's either him or one of Logan or William... I've got to wonder if this isn't the case. I was actually jarred out of the opening moments because she was in a conversation with Bernard, then suddenly back where she left off last week. It's either in her head or... ...the conversations with Bernard are happening either before or after the actions of the show. He's either working with her in those conversations to continue what Arnold started, or he's attempting to piece together what went wrong in the park after the fact. Or he's really Arnold and doesn't know it... Yeah - I'd be surprised at this stage if the board member present isn't MiB, Logan or William at this point. Logan seems the least likely as he's clearly just there for fun but the other two could be in that one seems hesitant about the game and the other seems to be playing a completely different game. Bernard as Arnold is a fun one! Proably a different body or the other engineers bts folks would, I assume, recognise the co-founder of Westworld? Maybe Ford is trying to get information from Arnold via Bernard. Another reason for protecting him and possibly the reason Bernard is so curious about Delores. Bernard really needs to home in on Maeve at the moment. She seems to be putting things together without his help making her seem more curious than Delores. Although it may be Delores knows more and is far more skilled at hiding it.It was also fun to see how she may have "infected" Hector who seemed incredibly curious about the bullet in her scarless midriff. It would be nice to see two hosts who are remembering things have a chat at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 11 hours ago, dooog said: Just to add... Hopkins' acting was phenomenal in that last episode +1. Credit to him. Guy isn't phoning it in at all, he's been killing it all season. Really enjoyed the actress who plays Armistice as well. Her and Ed Harris had some good chemistry (same with the dude who plays Hector with Thandie Newton). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariadne23 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 10 hours ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said: I think the maze is a metaphor for self-awareness. Have we ever heard Ford use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 27 minutes ago, Ariadne23 said: Have we ever heard Ford use it? Not yet, although the preview for next week appeared to show him and the MiB together so we'll see if he does then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariadne23 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 1 hour ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said: Not yet, although the preview for next week appeared to show him and the MiB together so we'll see if he does then. If not, was thinking that might lend some credence to the idea that Bernard is a host programmed by Ford to be a version of Arnold. The video chat with his wife being evidence against it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Quork Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 13 hours ago, Astromech said: Haha, speaking with the online host, Aeden, on the Discover Westworld website is amusing. Throw out questions about certain characters and places and see how the host reacts. Ask about Arnold and the maze. https://discoverwestworld.com/ "Not available in your country." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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