Small Questions v 10023

[FittleLinger]

Since it hadn't occured to anyone before that the Valyrian word for prince could also mean princess, I doubt that all Valyrian words are sexless. There might be a few though, but I doubt that it's a majority.

Exactly, it wouldn't be pointed out that this particular word is sexless if they all were.

[not in the face]

So in Valyria, a girl could inherit like in Dorne?

[Kennedy the Keen]

Targ Family Tree...

I just started reading tPatQ (love it so far). I was just wondering if anyone has an accurate Targ family tree during the events of the dance of the dragons? With marriages and true born/ bastards listed.

Thanks, KtK

[Iona]

Targ Family Tree...

I just started reading tPatQ (love it so far). I was just wondering if anyone has an accurate Targ family tree during the events of the dance of the dragons? With marriages and true born/ bastards listed.

Thanks, KtK

I bookmarked this when someone linked to it in the PatQ spoiler thread. I'll be needing it on my re-read since I'm completely useless when it comes to keeping up with family relations. I can't vouch for it's accuracy though, for the same reason! :)

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/nerdnerddl5mp1afnw.gif

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Targ Family Tree...

I just started reading tPatQ (love it so far). I was just wondering if anyone has an accurate Targ family tree during the events of the dance of the dragons? With marriages and true born/ bastards listed.

Thanks, KtK

In my signature, the Targaryen birth years thread, I described the family tree. Not exactly what you are looking for, but I was as clear as I could be on there on who is related to who and how. :)

Note: We don't know exactly who Baelon is, who is once mentioned in tPatQ. He could be either a sonor grandson of Jaehaerys. Several theories exist. Though I don't believe I mentioned him in my thread, he most likely died in 101 AC.

Edit: though also not mentioned, there since it is not confirmed, Alyn and Addam of Hull are most likely bastards of Laenor Velaryon. Addam, IRC, WAS 15 IN 130, placing his year of birth in 115 AC. He died in 130 AC. Alyn was one year younger (born in 116 AC, and lived until at least 173 AC).

[Lost Melnibonean]

Question: I remember reading somewhere that High Valyrian is sexless, and that the 'valonqar' means 'little sibling' rather than 'little brother'. Is it true?

Tyrion is the valonqar, she said. Do you use that word in Myr? Its High Valyrian, it means little brother. She had asked Septa Saranella about the word, after Melara drowned.

(But it's Jaime...)

[RumHam]

We only have evidence for a single word in high valyrian that is sexless, and that is the word for "prince". We can't say all words are sexless, and they probably aren't.

It's a word whose closest translation is prince. The word itself must have something to do with dragons, or Aemon pointing this out makes no sense:

The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke.

So it was probably a Valyrian word that meant "Dragon prince/princess"

[Hardstone]

Anybody have any idea how old the Greyjoy brothers are?

- Victarion is at least 4 years older than Aeron according to The Prophet.

[Allyria Winterborn]

Their ages are not mentioned. All we know is Theon's age - he was 19 at the beginning of the series, in 298 AL. We also know Theon is the youngest of 4 siblings and his two oldest brothers died in Balon's rebellion in 289 AL. This means they were old enough to fight at that point, so late teens - early 20s. This puts Balon's age at around 35-40 at the time of the rebellion, which means he would be in his late 40s - early 50s during the books. His brothers are all younger than him, so I'm thinking late 30s - young 40s.

[RumHam]

A flying axe took off half of Urri’s hand when he was ten-and-four, playing at the finger dance whilst his father and his elder brothers were away at war.

If we could trust that "at war" meant an actual war, maybe of the Ninepenny Kings, then that might help. I think it might just mean they were off reaving sadly.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So I believe I figured out the ages of Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure (at least for as far as is possible). But before changing the years where necessary on the wiki, I thought I'd check it here, since we've been discussing it because of a question I asked :)

Catelyn Tully was betrothed to Brandon Stark at the age of 12. Brandon died at the age of 20, and dueled with Petyr at the age of 20, while Petyr was scarcely 15 years old. Catelyn was 2 years older than Lysa, who got pregnant in Brandons last year of life (early 282 AC, see here).

How young they all had been-she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager.

Sansa and Arya are two years apart. This means that Petyr is younger as Lysa as well. Since Bran and Arya are two years apart as well, and Cat is thinking about her childrens ages compared to the ages she, Lysa and Petyr had at the time of her memory, it is likely that Catelyn would have mentioned if Petyr had been as old as Bran, had he been two years younger than Lysa, making it most logical that Petyr and Lysa only differed one year, or close to one year. So since Petyr was 14 when the duel took place, Lysa would have been 15, and Catelyn would have been 17.

That woud make Catelyn 17 in early 282 AC, and thus, she would be born in 265 if her nameday had already passed, and 264 if it hadn't and she would turn 18 that year which I think is most likely (which explains how the wiki got their 264 AL :) -> question answered).[/size

Catelyn was Hosters eldest living child, though Hosters wife gave birth to two sons before Catelyn was born. Both boys died in infancy. Hosters first born child could not have been born later than 262 AC.

With Catelyns birth year in 264 AC, Lysa was born in 266 AC. Edmure could not have been born sooner than 267 AC, since he is younger than Lysa, who was two years younger than Catelyn.

This is what I had so far. The thing I am wondering about now, is Edmure. The wiki lists his year of birth as 273 AC (which would make him 26 in 299 AC, at his wedding).

So the two questions I have now are 1) do you guys agree with my calculations concerning Catelyn and Lysa? and 2) does anyone know any hints about Edmure's age, other than that he is younger than Lysa?

[Russo]

Unsure if this has ever been asked, but about the Baratheon sigil- I always figured that it was a crowned stag just because they were royal, and similarly if the Starks or Greyjoys got the Iron Throne their sigils would become crowned direwolves or crowned krakens respectively. Is this right? Or has the Baratheon sigil always had a crown? And if so, why? Thanks! :)

I think crowned stag refers to the type of antlers, and how many points it has or something to that effect. I dont think it refers to the stag having a king's crown.

[Roddy Darwin]

I think crowned stag refers to the type of antlers, and how many points it has or something to that effect. I dont think it refers to the stag having a king's crown.

It most likely is an actual crown - see the semi-canon Heraldry of westeros.org's Citadel.

ETA: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Baratheon/

There are several other examples of Houses still bearing a crown on their sigils, from the day they were Kings in their own rights. House Dondarrion, whose arms Orys Baratheon took for his own, is indeed one of those cases.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

During RR, are there any ideas as to who was feeding Robert and the other usurpers with information from KL?

[Allyria Winterborn]

So I believe I figured out the ages of Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure (at least for as far as is possible). But before changing the years where necessary on the wiki, I thought I'd check it here, since we've been discussing it because of a question I asked :)

Yeah, I had pretty much figured that out already a few pages ago on this same thread :P

This is what I had so far. The thing I am wondering about now, is Edmure. The wiki lists his year of birth as 273 AC (which would make him 26 in 299 AC, at his wedding).

So the two questions I have now are 1) do you guys agree with my calculations concerning Catelyn and Lysa? and 2) does anyone know any hints about Edmure's age, other than that he is younger than Lysa?

About Edmure, a quick search of his name in the books didn't reveal anything about his age, just that:

- he squired for Brandon in the duel

- he is younger than Lysa

- Cat describes him as a young man when she sees him again in 298 AL.

We have established that at the time of the duel, Brandon was 20, Cat was 17-18, Lysa was 15-16 and Petyr was 15. Since Edmure was younger than Lysa, that puts his max. age at around 14.

Since he squired for Brandon, I'd say that puts his min. age at around 9. That's just a guess, but I don't recall any mention of squires being so young. In fact, boys usually start squiring at around 12 iirc, but in this case we can assume Edmure was not an *official* squire, just a little boy trying to make himself useful and get some attention from the older kids. He couldn't have been too young though, or he wouldn't have been able to actually help Brandon. That's why I guessed 9.

Therefore, I think Edmure's age could be anywhere between 9 and 14. This would mean that 17 years later, in 298 AL, he'd be 26-31 years old. Since Cat describes him as a young man, and in Westeros 30 year-old people are seen as middle-age, not young anymore, I'd say he's closer to 26 than to 31.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

This is wishful thinking: Is there anything hinting at Edmure being born in Winter or not?

Tyrion tells us in AGoT 21 Tyrion III:

He had been born in the dead of winter, a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion's earliest memories were of spring.

Tyrion and Edmure may be of an age, plusminus a few years. Tyrion's birth is halfway through 3 years of winter. That could be a little help.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Sadly I don't see any hint in the text that allows pinning Edmure's age with anything approaching certainty. I'd guess mid-late twenties, based on Minisa's childbearing history and what we know of him, including the fact that he remained unmarried. Imo, guesswork isn't wiki worthy and I don't think we can do more than make educated guesses :(

[Allyria Winterborn]

Imo, guesswork isn't wiki worthy and I don't think we can do more than make educated guesses :(

It may not be worthy of a normal wiki, but this wiki is largely based on guesswork. Martin left many things purposefully vague in the books to allow himself lee-way for ulterior books, so if we want to establish an exact timeline, we need to make a lot of educated guesses.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This is wishful thinking: Is there anything hinting at Edmure being born in Winter or not?

Tyrion tells us in AGoT 21 Tyrion III:

Tyrion and Edmure may be of an age, plusminus a few years. Tyrion's birth is halfway through 3 years of winter. That could be a little help.

I can't remember ever having read anything like that.

On another note, the wiki states everywhere that Jaime and Cersei were 9 when Tyrion was born. Is that ever stated in text? Because with Jaime and Cersei born in 266 and Tyrion supposedly in 274, that should be 8, not 9. So where did the 9 come from?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It may not be worthy of a normal wiki, but this wiki is largely based on guesswork. Martin left many things purposefully vague in the books to allow himself lee-way for ulterior books, so if we want to establish an exact timeline, we need to make a lot of educated guesses.

Some things we can be certain of, like Brans year of birth (he turns 8 in 298, so we can conclude he was born in 290). But Edmure, we can't be certain, apparently, so whoever edited his page should not have guessed a year and presented it as fact, IMHO, but rather should have placed a +/- sign in front of the number.

Related to that thought, is there a page on the wiki where the calculations are made for the birth years? Because if not, I could make one, and whenever there is a year which isn't easy to calculate (for example Catelyns or Lysa's birth year) I could explain it on there and place he link to that wiki page. That would also be helpfull for, for example, Edmure's age.

What do you guys think? Does it already exist, or doesn't it and should I make one?