Confessions from 2014

[Dany Girl]

Amen... I couldn't agree more... I hate double standards. I was still recovering from the fact that it's OK that Robert shouldn't have cared about his bastard children while Catelyn had to learn to love Jon, when I saw this amazing thread about Cersei's madness where people discussed that she is mostly mad due to her sexual history. Interestingly enough no one ever mentioned Jaime who was doing the same. Ah, those double standards... And I also confess that I hate myself for forgetting Apple's definition of misogyny. That way I would remember that it is OK to bash one female character's life(for example Cersei), while at the same time defending other female character from exactly same accusations (like Daenerys).

Well I was a part of that thread and that's not really what it was about at all. It was about things Cersei does that are mad or signs of madness. Promiscuity is often sited as a check point on many mental disorders including borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder. And specifically wrt Cersei it was the manner in which she carried out her sexual acts. In how deciding to sleep with her lover in a foreign castle that she knows nothing about is a risk taking behavior that is often another check point on many mental disorders.

The thread was specifically about Cersei, not Jaime, not Dany, not Robert. There were many things besides her sexual activities that were discussed as well. Please don't make it seem like me or anyone else was calling Cersei crazy because she has sex. We were discussing how her lack of forethought in her roll as queen specifically wrt her sexual behavior was risky behavior and showed another sign of her madness. To think that she'd never get caught, that she's untouchable, those were the behaviors that were being discussed. Not that taking charge of her sexuality is inherently crazy, but to think in her roll that she'd always get away with what's technically treason with no consequences.

[Winter's Knight]

Oooh Flo, I prefer tumblr not for the echo chamber (which really it isn't) but because of posts like this.

I love pretty much every aspect of Theon and Robb’s relationship but one of my favourite thing is how realistic and multi layered their friendship and/or romance is.

It was liberating for both of them. For Theon it meant finally having someone who loved and admired him in a sincere, genuine way. He didn’t have to pretend to be anyone else than Theon with Robb.

Even though it’s hard to be certain since we don’t get Robb’s pov, it seems that he behaved differently with Theon as well. We know he looked up to Theon which, given their respective status, is remarkable. We can never be 100% certain for Robb although Theon seemed to be one of his closest friend and someone he trusted with his life

As for Theon I am convinced Robb was the love of his life if only in the strict sense of the term. He never loved anyone like he loved Robb and nobody ever offered him the same respect and admiration Robb had for him.

And this is enough to prove it wasn’t doomed to fail at all. They could have lived as happy as can be if it wasn’t for the war and Robb sending Theon back to the Islands. In a way, one of Robb’s most touching token of love – freeing Theon and trusting him with coming back to the place he was born (which he thought was the home he had been looking for all along) – is the first step to the “destruction” of their relationship. Even though I’d like to remind you that it’s Balon’s refusal which precisely triggered Theon’s betrayal of Robb’s trust. If Balon had showed a little respect and affection for his last son, maybe he wouldn’t have felt the irrational need to prove he was worthy of his love/admiration/respect, no matter the costs.

Then, one can wonder how Robb could be so harsh with Theon the day he saved Bran from the wildlings. That’s an argument I have seen from times to times and always with very different answers. I have tackled this issue in the Throbb manifesto but I couldn’t go into details. I think that first of all it’s very important to remember that this scene is told from Bran’s point of view thus making it pretty hard for us to know what happened in Theon and Robb’s heads. As for Theon, I’m pretty sure my interpretation is close to the truth. Robb is a more difficult case as he has no POV whatsoever to help us but I think it makes sense.

Anyway, let’s focus on Robb and Theon’s state of mind at this point of the story.

It’s important to remember how afraid and stressed out Robb is. It doesn’t mean he didn’t do anything wrong, but it explains his lack of tact and empathy towards Theon in this scene. Of course, one could argue that Robb just naturally lacks empathy or is simply a self centered person but it would be a very strange interpretation of Robb’s character in my opinion. Not to mention that Theon’s reaction and the fact that Robb’s words left a lasting mark on him (he remembers it months later!) tend to prove that this event truly is one of a kind. Robb’s reaction was unusual and very surprising to Theon who expected him to be grateful – he didn’t expect the guards or Maester Luwin or even Bran (!) to thank him. He probably knew they wouldn’t. But from Robb, he expected something else. Something different. Because Robb was the only one in Winterfell to show him genuine kindness and trust.

You can’t understand what’s really going on in this scene and the reason why Robb and Theon argue in the first place if you don’t think about what happened just before.

“When he will wake,” Robb finished. He laid his hand on the pommel of his sword then, and went on in the solemn voice of Robb the Lord. “Bran, I promise you, whatever might happen, I will not let this be forgotten.”

Something in his tone made Bran even more fearful. “What will you do?” he asked as Theon Greyjoy reined in beside them.

“Theon thinks I should call the banners,” Robb said.

“Blood for blood.” For once Greyjoy did not smile. His lean, dark face had a hungry look to it, and black hair fell down across his eyes.

“Only the lord can call the banners,” Bran said as the snow drifted down around them.

“If your father dies,” Theon said, “Robb will be Lord of Winterfell.”

“He won’t die!” Bran screamed at him.

Robb took his hand. “He won’t die, not Father,” he said calmly.

“Still… the honor of the north is in my hands now. When our lord father took his leave of us, he told me to be strong for you and for Rickon. I’m almost a man grown, Bran.”

Bran shivered. “I wish Mother was back,” he said miserably. He looked around for Maester Luwin; his donkey was visible in the far distance, trotting over a rise. “Does Maester Luwin say to call the banners too?”

“The maester is timid as an old woman,” said Theon.

“Father always listened to his counsel,” Bran reminded his brother. “Mother too.”

“I listen to him,” Robb insisted. “I listen to everyone.”

There’s so much to say about this dialogue but I’ll try to make it clear and to the point.

Robb is still young and well, he’s obviously nervous about becoming Lord of Winterfell and a leader in general. Robb is brave and kind but he doesn’t seem to have the ambition of leading men and giving orders really. Plus, the whole situation with his mother and sister being away and his father and other sister being held prisoners in King’s Landing is quite stressful when you’re the older brother, the one supposed to take care of your whole family and to keep it close knit.

But there’s more than that. Bran, who is an intelligent and particularly observant young boy, seems to think Robb listens to Theon’s counsel a bit more and reproaches Robb with not relying on people like Maester Luwin instead of, you know, their Ironborn hostage. It’s a reaction that seems normal when you grew up in Winterfell, where Ironborn are seen as dangerous savages and backstabbers. Bran couldn’t trust Theon. Remember that scene in the first book where Theon prevents Robb from fighting Joffrey? Well, it is said there is a golden kraken painted on his chest – it is one of the many details that prove everyone was always reminded Theon was a stranger, and not any stranger, an Ironborn. A captive and potential enemy. The 8 year old boy raised in Winterfell had little reason to trust Theon in such a dreadful situation.

The point is, he reproaches Robb with it because Robb is supposed to listen to everyone and especially not rely on their captive. In Bran’s mind, Robb was being childish and irrational; he wasn’t behaving like the heir to Winterfell should. (“…I’m almost a man grown, Bran.” Bran shivered. “I wish Mother was back,” [bran] said miserably.)

Well, precisely. Robb was listening to his heart. And I do think at this precise moment, he wasn’t proud of it. It scared him – because how can he defend Winterfell if he doesn’t behave like a grown man? Which explains why he seems so tense: “I listen to him,” Robb insisted. “I listen to everyone.”

Perhaps Robb felt guilty towards his family. He thought that he may be relying on Theon too much. The fact that Theon was a hostage and a Greyjoy made the guilt worse and that alone could explain Robb’s unusual behavior. Another thing that is particularly interesting is that Theon goes through the same kind of guilt when he comes back to Pyke – he feels like a traitor to his family because of this relationship with Robb Stark, Eddard Stark’s heir and feels the need to prove himself as a Greyjoy partly because of that.

No need to remind you the “this is not your house” scene doesn’t exist in the books – I do think it makes sense in the show because the idea it conveys is very similar but I prefer the subtler book version. So let’s jump to the finale scene.

(…) Bran turned his head. Theon Greyjoy stood beside a sentinel tree, his bow in hand. He was smiling. Ever smiling. A half-dozen arrows were thrust into the soft ground at his feet, but it had taken only one. “A dead enemy is a thing of beauty,” he announced.

Given his attitude, Theon did not expect Robb to be angry at him at all. After all, he just saved Bran’s life with a single shot before the guards even moved. He doesn’t ask anyone to thank him. He just smiles and shows off a bit, like he always does.

“Jon always said you were an ass, Greyjoy,” Robb said loudly. “I ought to chain you up in the yard and let Bran take a few practice shots at you. “

“You should be thanking me for saving your brother’s life.”

“What if you had missed the shot?” Robb said. “What if you’d only wounded him? What if you had made his hand jump, or hit Bran instead? For all you knew, the man might have been wearing a breastplate, all you could see was the back of his cloak. What would have happened to my brother then? Did you ever think of that, Greyjoy?”

Notice how stressed out Robb sounds – remember he’s supposed to be the older brother and he wasn’t the one to save Bran. That probably scared him too. Theon was quicker to act than him. I don’t know what exactly crossed Robb’s mind but I can imagine he must have felt useless and unfit to protect his own family. I do believe Robb knew he wasn’t totally fair in criticizing Theon. He was being quite childish. “Robb turned his head to look at Theon once more. Bran had never seen him so angry, yet he said nothing.” It’s true that Theon and the guards left Bran alone, but above all, Robb is probably angry at himself for letting his brother on his own.Add that to Bran’s comment on how he relied too much on Theon earlier and you get this unfair reaction. If we were to dig into Robb’s comment deeper, notice how he basically reproaches Theon with being impulsive – he didn’t hesitate a second before shooting, which – it’s true – could have been disastrous if he had missed. Isn’t that precisely what Theon always, always does? Taking Winterfell was a fantasy, some crazy idea that crossed his mind and he didn’t think twice about it. Impulsiveness is a keystone in Theon’s development and I find it interesting that it had been subtlety hinted at in the first book.

Anyway, Theon can’t hide his disappointment. We know he hid everything behind a smile but that probably was too much even for him. Robb’s tone is not one of a close friend anymore, he is cold and even calls him Greyjoy instead of simply Theon (earlier: “Not where my brother can hear, Theon,” Robb warned him with a glance at Bran”). No need to elaborate on the symbolic weight of that.

Theon’s smile was gone. He gave a sullen shrug and began to pull his arrows from the ground, one by one.

After that, Robb does his best to listen to other people than Theon. Also, given what the wolves did to one of the men that attacked Bran, Robb probably wanted to avoid to shed anymore blood.

Theon Greyjoy sauntered closer. “Give her to the wolves,” he urged Robb.

“She’s a woman,” Robb said.

Maester Luwin stood. “We might do well to question her.”

Bran could see the relief on his brother’s face.

Even if it seems rather insignificant in comparison with their profound bond, this event really is the first turning-point of Robb and Theon’s relationship. From this moment on, the idea that he may not belong at Robb’s side is planted on Theon’s mind. He remembers it when he has to choose between his family and Robb. He remembers it and uses it to justify his final choice to himself. Theon who only wants to garner smiles and respect, Theon who thought the only one in the world who had ever made him feel worthy and needed was Robb started to doubt he belonged at his side. It takes time to have any effect though; he doesn’t think about leaving him because of this since he is willing to fight and die for Robb during the war. He still was proud to stand by him and to be held in high regard by King Robb Stark.

There are many other factors that played a role on his choice but remember that even if he doesn’t choose to stay by his side, Robb indirectly guided Theon’s final choice. It shows how important Robb was for Theon: if he had just smiled at him, maybe he wouldn’t have doubted he belonged at his side. I do believe he would have tried to get rid of his hostage status, of course but this event must have had an impact on Theon’s state of mind as demonstrated by the fact that he remembers it in A Clash Of Kings, months later.

Even Robb… he ought to have won a smile the day he’d saved Bran from that wildling,

[WSmith84]

Is that so?

Yeah, I got it from winteriscoming.net. Here's a link to that site which doesn't say that they're casting for a young Cersei, but does say that they're casting for Maggy.

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/05/23/characters-confirmed-game-thrones-season-5-new-details/

[Hodor the Articulate]

Seven hells! Every time I think of an idea for a new thread, someone else goes and posts it before I get to. Damn my procrastination.

[Winter Blues]

I want whatever the hell Littlefinger is up to to actually succeed. He's the hardest working man in Westeros.

Dany is irritating. So is Asha Greyjoy.

Jon is a bit dimwitted, but my favorite to survive the winter.

I want Cersei to live until the end of the series just to watch her break.

I want the Iron Throne to burn.

I love Mance.

Biggest confession: I refuse to reread AFfC

[Vincit]

The Starks bore me. Bran is turning into a tree, Rickon is on Skagos which is probably the worst place for a boy of his temperament, Arya is in Braavos with these horrifying Faceless Men and Sansa is being played by Littlefinger. To me, the Starks were just a way for Martin to make a jab at other storytellers who have these 'perfectly moral' main characters survive situations that realistically would have caused their deaths (Harry Potter being resurrected by the power of love, Gandalf coming back to life, every Disney character ever). The Starks exist to prove that even main characters can die (Ned Stark), morality without sense makes martyrs (Ned and Robb both), and that resurrection must come with a significant price (Catelyn). While they still have a role to play, the Stark faction ceased to exist with Robb's death and will continue to matter less as the story goes on.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oooh Flo, I prefer tumblr not for the echo chamber (which really it isn't) but because of posts like this.

Jesuschrist... I kept scrolling and scrolling and it never ended :lol:

But I know the feeling. I like tumblr for the cute things I find there but fandom.. I mostly always simply reblog their pretty gifs and images but I wont' read. It's like every friendship, platonic as it's obvious it is, has some sexual undertones. Even though all the participants are raging heterosexuals... like it's an obligation to be bi...

[Mladen]

Well I was a part of that thread and that's not really what it was about at all. It was about things Cersei does that are mad or signs of madness. Promiscuity is often sited as a check point on many mental disorders including borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder. And specifically wrt Cersei it was the manner in which she carried out her sexual acts. In how deciding to sleep with her lover in a foreign castle that she knows nothing about is a risk taking behavior that is often another check point on many mental disorders.

The thread was specifically about Cersei, not Jaime, not Dany, not Robert. There were many things besides her sexual activities that were discussed as well. Please don't make it seem like me or anyone else was calling Cersei crazy because she has sex. We were discussing how her lack of forethought in her roll as queen specifically wrt her sexual behavior was risky behavior and showed another sign of her madness. To think that she'd never get caught, that she's untouchable, those were the behaviors that were being discussed. Not that taking charge of her sexuality is inherently crazy, but to think in her roll that she'd always get away with what's technically treason with no consequences.

I am sorry, but that thread was, by far, the most misogynist thread in quite some time... And even worse, the biggest disappointment I had since joining the forum... Like, I agree she is crazy but not because of "promiscuity" that includes sleeping with 4 men in period of 20 years.

[LordStoneheart]

Tumblr has some good accounts and potential... but damn, it rises above and beyond its full potential for all things vapid, homoerotic, and fanfictiony.

[Lord Flashheart]

Not a direct dig at anyone but I confess I hate when the term Misogyny is thrown around on this site constantly.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I like the "what if" threads :frown5:

Also, I think tPatQ is, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but, well, total crap.

And every time someone says the Tyrells are just like the Lannisters I step on a box full of puppies

And I agree with what someone said upthread about Linda, though that's not the only reason why I won't buy tWoIaF. I'm just not interested, I guess

[Dany Girl]

I am sorry, but that thread was, by far, the most misogynist thread in quite some time... And even worse, the biggest disappointment I had since joining the forum... Like, I agree she is crazy but not because of "promiscuity" that includes sleeping with 4 men in period of 20 years.

But that's the thing, it's not about "promiscuity" really. It's about a person who chose to be Queen, yet commits treason, and expects to get away with it because she thinks she's untouchable. Cersei's sexual behavior is not really promiscuous, but it is a risk taking behavior, which is a symptom of mental illness.

Yes, some people ruined the thread by being misogynistic, but overall the topic has merit. It sucks when interesting topics get ruined by people being out of line. Cersei is crazy. Cersei's behaviors involving sex are a direct indication of her craziness simply because she is Queen and commuting treason and expects to get away with it.

[Frey Pentos]

At some stage I'd like to see Sansa thrown out the moon door.

[Minsc]

I find Jaime to be an interesting read, however I hope Lady Stoneheart kills him and if not her I hope Tyrion convinces Dany to fed him to Drogon.

The dropping of the Tysha confession kind of ruined the show for me, even though I will likely keep watching.

[Mladen]

But that's the thing, it's not about "promiscuity" really. It's about a person who chose to be Queen, yet commits treason, and expects to get away with it because she thinks she's untouchable. Cersei's sexual behavior is not really promiscuous, but it is a risk taking behavior, which is a symptom of mental illness.

Yes, some people ruined the thread by being misogynistic, but overall the topic has merit. It sucks when interesting topics get ruined by people being out of line. Cersei is crazy. Cersei's behaviors involving sex are a direct indication of her craziness simply because she is Queen and commuting treason and expects to get away with it.

Oh, if you think that conclusion was problematic, let me assure you, no one actually believes that Cersei isn't crazy. But, the arguments were problematic. Choosing sexuality over abundance of other arguments is, IMO, categorically wrong and yes, it reeks of misogyny. But, we have derailed this thread with the discussion about such nasty thread... My apologies, OP...

[UVA]

I haven't said there should be a law forbiding people for interpret medieval characters using 21st century standards, I just said I hated it and I find it utterly stupid. So your post, intentionally or not, comes off as just you trying to look hollier-than-thou.

But these aren't medieval characters, strictly speaking, written for a medieval audience? What I find 'utterly stupid' as you say, is assessing the characters in some kind of 'medievaly' vacuum, not taking into account that aSoIaF is written by a 21st c. author for a first world contemporaneous audience. I think that there are constraints given the quasi-medieval context to be sure but I also think it's appropriate and even necessary to apply modern sensibilities when reading the text.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Oooh Flo, I prefer tumblr not for the echo chamber (which really it isn't) but because of posts like this.

It can be an echo chamber depending who and what you follow. ;)

Come for the gifs, stay for the shipping! ;) Thats a good write-up but i totally see what that blogger did thar.

Yeah, I got it from winteriscoming.net. Here's a link to that site which doesn't say that they're casting for a young Cersei, but does say that they're casting for Maggy.

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/05/23/characters-confirmed-game-thrones-season-5-new-details/

Wait wait wait!

*record scratch*

They are actually going to film a flashback? Excuse me while i flip a freaking table because i thought the show swore off flashbacks. So we get the fucking Maggy one but no Tower of Joy? Goddammit! Unless theres some bloody handwave that has Bran seeing the Tower of fucking Joy eventually in the show, im going to have kittens. Why did they decide all the sudden that flashbacks were ok? #sonotamused

If they are gonna start doing flashbacks, time to fill in a lot of fucking blanks!

Not a direct dig at anyone but I confess I hate when the term Misogyny is thrown around on this site constantly.

Hmmm..

Also i read that one thread Mladen is referring to. Im really glad i missed it.

At some stage I'd like to see Sansa thrown out the moon door.

Tell us how you really feel.

[The Bittersteel]

At first I supported Daenerys for the Iron Throne, then Stannis now I really hope neither get it.

1. Jon Snow

2. Aegon (red or black)

3. Legitimized Edric Storm.

Despite their near universal popularity I don't care for Arya or Tyrion very much at all.

[Sapphireghost18]

I confess I get sick of people complaining about people complaining about the changes in the show.

I confess that I have to try SO hard not to be that person complaining about people complaining about the changes on the show. (I mean come on! It is A) A different medium B) Working with source material that it might surpass) ... Now I've failed

I confess that this weird Yankees vs Red Sox type rivalry between Dany and Stannis fans makes me want to spit fire out of my mouth.

I confess that when people say they hate Cat a part of me assumes they're sexist (then I slap myself in the face and get over myself because that's silly)

I confess that I hope Jon's parentage ends up not being a big deal.

I confess that I like Cersei... Yup... I said it.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I confess that this weird Yankees vs Red Sox type rivalry between Dany and Stannis fans makes me want to spit fire out of my mouth.

It is really bizarro. But its sure a lot of fun to watch!

I confess i see Hyrule Historia in your avatar. #NerdExposure