US Politics: Another Government Shutdown Looms

[OnionAhaiReborn]

While we're on the subject of human rights, Commodore, would you like to discuss your support for the CIA's use of torture?

[TrueMetis]

"Improve relations" is a nebulous phrase.

Does it improve human rights? Does it improve freedom of the press? Freedom of speech? Freedom of religion and association? Does it lead to elections?

Let's assume that there hasn't been any improvement, what's your alternative?

[Maithanet]

"Improve relations" is a nebulous phrase.

I use "improve relations" as to mean less likely to engage in real or proxy wars with one another. And given that the US and China have the two most powerful militaries in the world, that is nothing to scoff at.

As we can see from their squeeing reaction, the left has a strange affinity for the Cuban regime as some kind of workers' paradise.

The Cuban government has its flaws and its successes. We have normal relationships with plenty of regimes that are far more loathsome than Cuba, so it seems very strange to hold the "bloody tyrant Castro brothers" up as some kind of pariah.

[Fez]

As we can see from their squeeing reaction, the left has a strange affinity for the Cuban regime as some kind of workers' paradise.

Would you call this more or less strange than the right's affinity for Putin's regime as some kind of strongman paradise?

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

"Improve relations" is a nebulous phrase.

Does it improve human rights? Does it improve freedom of the press? Freedom of speech? Freedom of religion and association? Does it lead to elections?

Or does it instead legitimize, enrich, and empower the ruling regime? That's the only reason for the bloody tyrant Castro brothers to enter into any agreement.

As we can see from their squeeing reaction, the left has a strange affinity for the Cuban regime as some kind of workers' paradise.

Hey, a rising tide lifts all boats, right? I think Karl Marx might have said that.

But seriously, I'm not sure why you would discount the very real possibility of tangible material benefits to the Cuban people themselves, who are undoubtedly going to benefit from increased spending from Americans. Is it true that the government will disproportionately benefit from this? Of course. Governments everywhere are parasites feeding off the productive labor of their citizens. But isn't the ability of a person to earn some money that lifts them above grinding poverty a value that, if you were similarly situated, you might value MORE than abstract rights like freedom of the press and freedom of speech. Some democracy theorists even posit that some level of affluence is almost a necessary precondition for democracy to flourish - you can spend a lot more time worrying about who to vote for and your right to association when you have a full stomach and a secure living situation.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Let's assume that there hasn't been any improvement, what's your alternative?

Yeah, I'm not sure what the actual, affirmative argument for sanctions is. What's the value? What does it accomplish?

It's easy to say, "this is how it is, and any change constitutes capitulation to America's enemies." But this doesn't appear to be anything but a genuflection to the status quo. If the policy of sanctions actually has any value, I'm waiting for someone to make the case as to what that value is.

[TrackerNeil]

"Improve relations" is a nebulous phrase.

Does it improve human rights? Does it improve freedom of the press? Freedom of speech? Freedom of religion and association? Does it lead to elections?

Or does it instead legitimize, enrich, and empower the ruling regime? That's the only reason for the bloody tyrant Castro brothers to enter into any agreement.

As we can see from their squeeing reaction, the left has a strange affinity for the Cuban regime as some kind of workers' paradise.

I'd like to see you support improving human rights here in the US, Commodore. I surely would.

[karaddin]

That's some first class concern trolling. His first post made it clear he doesn't give a flying fuck about the people of Cuba, opposing the commies is the important thing. Why the commies of Cuba are so evil and scary? Fuck knows, probably because they are occupying the American holiday island that you lost so long ago only the old rich people remember owning it. It's certainly not because they're a threat.

To try and pretend the embargo is in place for the good of the people of Cuba is... More than a little disingenuous.

[aceluby]

To try and pretend the embargo is in place for the good of the people of Cuba is... More than a little disingenuous.

It's laughable. It's only purpose is to hurt the average person enough that the powers that be change their policies so it doesn't hurt the people as much (which history proves that they don't), or it hurts the average person enough that there is a bloody revolution. Neither end is good for the average Cuban, and hasn't been as long as the embargo has been in place.

And for this to come from the GOP spokesperson of the board is doubly laughable.

[Tears of Lys]

re: Cuba

Dammit people, that was the one island Canadians could go to in order to avoid American tourists!!

You can't take this away from us, you bastards!!

Heh. Wonder if this will put an end to Canadian entrepreneurs peddling "Hamburgers! Hotdogs! Cuban Cigars!" on the Detroit River during the summer boating season.

Any cigar-smokers know if they're really any better than your average cigar?

Not that I would try one... :leaving:

[maarsen]

Just curious but how many people on this thread have actually been to Cuba? I have and the embargo has made almost no difference to their lives. The inability to buy US goods is a minimal problem when the same goods are easily available from South america, Mexico, Canada, and Europe. Coca Cola was even available in Cuba. The problem is that they are a very poor country and do not have the money to buy stuff. Being able to sell stuff into a larger market, and having a larger tourism base will help the Cuban people. I will be there again in just over a week so anybody want some cigars?

[cdawnb]

I don't know if this is the right thread to post this in, but it really made my day.

Two brothers on the opposite sides politically get scolded on C-SPAN by their mother. :bowdown:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/16/us/woodhouse-brothers-c-span/index.html?c=us

[Swordfish]

Heh. Wonder if this will put an end to Canadian entrepreneurs peddling "Hamburgers! Hotdogs! Cuban Cigars!" on the Detroit River during the summer boating season.

Any cigar-smokers know if they're really any better than your average cigar?

Not that I would try one... :leaving:

They are not. in fact, they may not even be as good as hondurans.... but it really depends who you ask.

[davos]

As we can see from their squeeing reaction, the left has a strange affinity for the Cuban regime as some kind of workers' paradise.

While I'm sure there a few radicals leftists that adore Castro, most recognize the Cuban government as repressive with a negative history of human rights. The embargo hurts the people of Cuba far more than it does those at the upper echelons of power. We have a history of being very cozy with governments that were rather monstrousb. Mubarak's Egypt and Pinochet's Chile come to mind as prime examples of governments that were at least as noxious as Cuba's, if not more so, that we have had close relations with. Holding Cuba to a standard we do not hold other nations and barely hold ourselves is ludicrious.

It also bares considering the history. Batista was a brutal bastard. He was just our brutal bastard. When Castro overthrew him, the new regime was open to positive relations with the US. We wouldn't even give them the time of day, bankrolled and organized a failed invasion of Cuba, cut them off economically and generally forced them into the soviet camp for protection. None of this excuses the crimes of the Castro regime but it puts the relationship with the US in an historical context where we do not exactly come out looking like the guys with wearing the white hats. Opening up relations and evntually restore normal commerce will help the Cuban people and is as likely, if not more likely, to encourage change than continuing the boneheaded approach we have stubbornly stuck to for the past 55 or so years. Of course, you reduce naunced opinions that disagree with you into simplistic and misrepresentative summaries to turn them into easy targets.

[aceluby]

They are not. in fact, they may not even be as good as hondurans.... but it really depends who you ask.

Totally agree. There are better US made cigars.

[Tywin Manderly]

I'm sure that is his reasoning, but I find that the sentiment behind such rationales usually goes like this, "I have little sympathy for gay people."

Yep.

[Tywin Manderly]

Why is moving to another state an ok solution, but moving to another country not?

In his mindset leaving "God's own country" is, of course, something uncalled for.

If you're poor and working that magical $13/hr job with little to no skills (aka, the average American) whether you're talking about moving to another country or moving to another state, both are about as equally feasible.

In Rand Paul's utopian libertarian mind moving to another State is as easy as changing one's socks.

[Wise Fool]

It amuses me when libertarian-esque right-wingers express some form of support for the embargo on Cuba, because it shows that even amongst those who make the Free Market less an economic system and more of a religion, the principle goes out the window when there's brown people that might benefit from it. Not just the Cuban embargo; look how the Right views immigration or outsourcing - as threats to the fatherland and therefore unacceptable. It's also why they have such a man-crush on Putin: he represents the very best of their ideology put into practice. Tyranny, state capitalism, macho posturing, empty rhetoric, authoritarianism, and - of course - violence. Watering the tree of liberty and all that shit.

[lokisnow]

Not just the judges virtually every pending nominee reported out of comittee except a social security flunky who was withdrawn rather than waste thirty hours.

Look at this twitter feed and scroll back to friday, there's been an unbelievable amount done.

https://mobile.twitter.com/dsenfloor

And here's a chart illustrating relative confirmations and another illustrating existing vacancies.

pic.twitter.com/yKyxj0QTVG

pic.twitter.com/0lrQVHutlr

[Lord Mord]

Commodore,

As we can see from their squeeing reaction, the left has a strange affinity for the Cuban regime as some kind of workers' paradise.

I don't understand how someone so quick to defend those whom the left deigns as bigots by asking if those progressive accusers can read minds can now make this bold claim with a straight face. Can you help me with this?