Avengers 2: The SPOILER thread (warning: spoilers NOT in tags)

[Howdyphillip]

Was anyone else annoyed by the amount of random cleavage in the movie? I mean, I understand that the movie was at least somewhat egalitarian with its contstant ogling of Evans and Hemsworth, but the random blonde woman in Sokovia with her shirt open was pretty offputting. She even made it into the previews! And couldn't we see Elizabeth Olsen crying about her dead brother without also looking down her shirt?

I mean, fun is fun, but at times this movie just seemed kinda gross.

I did not notice any egregious cleavage shots in this movie at all. i am sure that there might have been some, but they certainly were not in the foreground. The source material is leaps and bounds more exploitative in that way than this movie ever thought about being.

[Myrddin]

Somewhere, a twelve year old just found a new folder in his Dropbox labeled "Ultron"... :)

Damn, the cloud!

[Winterfell is Burning]

Anyone read Dean Faraci's take on the character arcs for AoU? It's a great read: http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/05/12/earths-mightiest-monsters-the-character-arcs-of-avengers-age-of-ultron

[Greywolf2375]

Was anyone else annoyed by the amount of random cleavage in the movie? I mean, I understand that the movie was at least somewhat egalitarian with its contstant ogling of Evans and Hemsworth, but the random blonde woman in Sokovia with her shirt open was pretty offputting. She even made it into the previews! And couldn't we see Elizabeth Olsen crying about her dead brother without also looking down her shirt?

I mean, fun is fun, but at times this movie just seemed kinda gross.

It's funny you say that - I just saw the movie today and was in the middle of the movie wondering if her name in the credits was "Sokolovian Mom with the rack" since that's what was focused on.

Enjoyed the movie overall - I'm sure there were flaws, but since this is the first movie I've seen in the theatres in....I have no idea how long it was the greatest movie ever. Loved the humor.

[The Reckoner]

Beaches offend me as well.

[Jace, Extat]

Beaches offend me as well.

This is the film for you then, there are no beaches. Just enormous tracts of land, apparently.

For serious, what's this 'Sokolovian Mom with the rack' thing people are going on about? I don't have the slightest memory of this. When did the offending event take place in the film?

[Greywolf2375]

This is the film for you then, there are no beaches. Just enormous tracts of land, apparently.

For serious, what's this 'Sokolovian Mom with the rack' thing people are going on about? I don't have the slightest memory of this. When did the offending event take place in the film?

Well, in general Johannsons cleavage was on display a good amount and the mother in question was really focused when they were evacuating the city.

[Hayyoth]

I'm with you 100% on the whole Black Widow monster scene interpretation thing. Seemed like people looking for a reason to hate JW for race / sex indiscretions.

Yet another reason why Twitter needs to be burned to the ground and a steak driven into it's heart. One of the few scenes in the movie that gives us some humanity and poignancy causes this degree of outrage? Whedon has gone out of his way to pander to these kind of idiots for a long time though, so I'm not feeling that much sympathy for the dude.

[Hayyoth]

It's funny you say that - I just saw the movie today and was in the middle of the movie wondering if her name in the credits was "Sokolovian Mom with the rack" since that's what was focused on.

Enjoyed the movie overall - I'm sure there were flaws, but since this is the first movie I've seen in the theatres in....I have no idea how long it was the greatest movie ever. Loved the humor.

I enjoyed it too, just had no clue what was going on half the time. The plot seemed needlessly complex to me, surely with that many characters it would be important to keep the plot fairly simple? Instead McGuffins abounded. Also why did Ultron hate humanity so much. It was like one minute he was going to teach humanity a lesson and improve us, the next he was going to wipe every man woman and child of the face of the Earth.....well that escalated quickly. Was his character development edited out or something?

[Winterfell is Burning]

I enjoyed it too, just had no clue what was going on half the time. The plot seemed needlessly complex to me, surely with that many characters it would be important to keep the plot fairly simple? Instead McGuffins abounded. Also why did Ultron hate humanity so much. It was like one minute he was going to teach humanity a lesson and improve us, the next he was going to wipe every man woman and child of the face of the Earth.....well that escalated quickly. Was his character development edited out or something?

Turning every living inhabitant of Earth into a robot would be helping them; well, in Ultron's logic anyway.

[Bastard of Boston]

I always question my own understanding of Ultron, because I didn't think he was that hard to swallow. However, I see lots of critiques on how vague he was. Ultron had a God complex. He wanted to wipe out humanity and start from scratch. I interpreted Ultron as someone who didn't think being a robot was better. The Pinocchio theme was clear in the trailer -- Ultron wanted to be more human, hence him creating Vision. He wanted to be a "real boy," or at least his own image of what that would be. Enter the robot made of real skin. I didn't see him as "hating" humans, I saw him envying humans and trying desperately to understand them. Don't forget his affection toward Wanda and Pietro. He seemed to take on some twisted parental role and was hurt when they both turned on him.

I always figured he wanted to wipe out the human race and start from "Adam and Eve" scratch -- recreating humans in his own twisted image.

[The Mother of The Others]

waiting this long to see it was hard, and then the movie was hard!

vision was a bigger deal than expected, and was pulled off pretty well as an example of crazy shit happening onscreen that I was able to take seriously. That's good for them, because these movies will be getting into more obscure territory as they go and making the new heroes' introduction scenes semi-believable will be an important skill they'll need.

I laughed at Ultron's "oh for God's sake!" and "With the benefit of hindsight... [runs]..."

Alas, "Age of..." was just an homage title because I've had some bouts with constipation that lasted longer than Ultron's "era." I think Joss used Ultron's personality as a shield against needing to explain every little aspect of the robo entity----the Ultron we saw wouldn't bother to explain himself fully anyway. We should expect things like that to remain partial enigmas. Because they just would.

Hopefully Ultron will be back as a surprise guest in someone else's movie featuring one of his body upgrades, like when they jam a 3rd villain into those Spiderman affairs. And I can imagine Quick making another appearance, if only in the Mind of the witch. She'll have access the mind gem and Vision may be inclined to comfort her in that way. I liked the Witch, and that was all I'd really requested of Whedon for this movie.

The overall script didn't seem as magically balanced as the first avengers, and the hero interations were more iconic in that first movie because everything was new and just being introduced then, so in some ways the sequel couldn't compete with that awesomeness now that lots of this stuff is old hat to the audience. So I don't foresee myself rewatching this one quite as many times. And yet it's got lots of fun packed in there and nothing to complain about really. Good times.

[Balerion the one eared cat]

Personally I thought it was awesome. Just the right amount of humour and references to previous film(s), sets up other Marvel films (but not so much that it detracted from the story), fight scenes were just the right length (maybe the last one dragged a little), and no, I don't think the plot was too complex really (haven't seen any Captain America films and don't remember everything from previous Thor/Iron Man/Hulk films, but I could still follow all the references).

The Hulk and Black Widow storyline stole it for me, though. I've shipped that since their first scene in Avengers 1 ("and what if I say no?" "Then I'll persuade you..." ) and I'm so glad that it got to develop. I'm not putting money on it, but I really really hope they continue that through future films (even though from the sounds of it they'll take a back seat in Infinity War). I don't understand at all how people think the scene about her sterilisation is sexist: she's had something that should have been a very personal choice ripped away, without consent, with the sole purpose of making her a better killer, and she feels like that has dehumanised her. What's sexist about that? All that shows to me is how perfect her and Bruce are for each other...

[The Anti-Targ]

Was anyone else annoyed by the amount of random cleavage in the movie? I mean, I understand that the movie was at least somewhat egalitarian with its contstant ogling of Evans and Hemsworth, but the random blonde woman in Sokovia with her shirt open was pretty offputting. She even made it into the previews! And couldn't we see Elizabeth Olsen crying about her dead brother without also looking down her shirt?

I mean, fun is fun, but at times this movie just seemed kinda gross.

I gotta say, I didn't notice a single egregious cleavage shot. That's not to deny the existence of any egregious cleavage shots, but rather that I normally would notice such things. A testament to the actually important parts of the movie, I suppose, that such things went completely unnoticed by me. No doubt now that they have been mentioned my subconscious will be attuned to looking for them when I next watch the movie. However I expect that to not be until the Blu-ray is out as I doubt I will get back to the cinema to watch it.

[Calibandar]

I don't understand at all how people think the scene about her sterilisation is sexist: she's had something that should have been a very personal choice ripped away, without consent, with the sole purpose of making her a better killer, and she feels like that has dehumanised her. What's sexist about that? All that shows to me is how perfect her and Bruce are for each other...

Well the film appears to be making the point that she's a monster, and like Bruce in that way, and one of the reasons they strongly bring forth for that being the case is her inability to conceive. I understand the irritation about that amongst female viewers. Even the basic implication that her sterility has something to do with her being a monster, according to herself, is taking things rather far.

[voodooqueen126]

Well the film appears to be making the point that she's a monster, and like Bruce in that way, and one of the reasons they strongly bring forth for that being the case is her inability to conceive. I understand the irritation about that amongst female viewers. Even if the implication that her sterility has something to do with her being a monster, according to herself, is taking things rather far.

Well the film appears to be making the point that she's a monster, and like Bruce in that way, and one of the reasons they strongly bring forth for that being the case is her inability to conceive. I understand the irritation about that amongst female viewers. Even if the implication that her sterility has something to do with her being a monster, according to herself, is taking things rather far.

Something monstrous was done to Blackwidow, but she was not monstrous, atleast not then. Just a victim of serious child abuse.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Well the film appears to be making the point that she's a monster,

No, it doesn't.

[The Mother of The Others]

Cleavage and I go way back so I saw it but it didn't detract from the story of Slovakistan in fact it made that nation a more vital and important region of the globe, something worth fighting for, and it gave me a stake in wanting to see that nation's population ushered to safety by SHIELD.

I don't claim to have a full grasp of the Romanov / Hulk plotline because that's when I got up to pee. But it sounds to me like the kind of people who are accusing the film are the sort of people who've read The Wide Sargasso Sea and are accustomed to seeking out very hidden counter-intuitive clues in the narrative. You know, the people who reach conclusions totally in opposition to the narrator. Maybe people were miffed by how the two girlfriend characters weren't present for this outing.

The early action scenes were kind of too dark to see clearly and will have to be studied hard once it's available to rewind the movie at will. So.... the Baron's plan was to...... not die? but also to release Ultron himself? Because it seemed like the witch came up with her own twist on that by letting Stark take the scepter so he'd be the one to birth Ultron thanks to the paranoia she gave him. So.... the original Baron plan was..... ? Guess it doesn't matter now.

[Balerion the one eared cat]

Well the film appears to be making the point that she's a monster, and like Bruce in that way, and one of the reasons they strongly bring forth for that being the case is her inability to conceive. I understand the irritation about that amongst female viewers. Even the basic implication that her sterility has something to do with her being a monster, according to herself, is taking things rather far.

I get what you're saying, but I really didn't see it like that (and I'm female). Instead, I got two impressions: one, like lots of people have said, that something monstrous was done to her, and she sees that as some kind of reflection on herself. She feels like a part of her humanity has been taken from her, with not a damn thing she can do to control it, and that's enough to mess anyone up.

But the second thing I got from it was from the way she said "it's efficient, makes everything easier, even killing". I don't think she sees herself as a monster because she can't have children; it's because she finds killing so easy. She's good at it, it seems to come naturally to her, and because of that she can't ever see herself as a "hero" in the way that Cap or Thor are. I feel like the sterilisation was just the cherry on top of the dark and twisty cake: everything about her training made her into a killing machine, and not being allowed to choose to have children, to be forced to live for the sole purpose of killing rather than being able to have a future and a family with someone (which applies to either gender - Bruce, too, feels the pain of not being able to have children or have a "normal", stable relationship with someone; that's why he runs away at the end) makes her feel like a monster. That's why she talks about wanting to be an Avenger, "anything more than the assassin they made me." I don't believe the "monster" comment was solely about her not being able to have children: it's the whole situation, and the fact that she's actually pretty damn good at what she's been trained to do, that makes her feel like a monster. It's like the people in the Red Room have won, and she has no control over what they did to her, and so she'll never feel like she's "worthy" to be an Avenger even though she really is a hero. Personally, I didn't feel it wasn't sexist at all. I certainly don't think the implication was "women are useless unless they have kids, that's their only aim" as some people interpreted that scene. Personally I thought it was beautifully done.

Also (feel like I'm going to get some anti-feminism abuse, but try and stay with me), some women want to have kids. Same for men. They feel like it's part of a "normal, human" life: look at Hawkeye. The fact that she or Banner will never be able to have the best of both worlds, or even any part of a standard domestic life at home with a conventional family, is more than enough to make someone feel like they've lost some of their humanity. It doesn't have to apply to Widow just because she's a woman, it's the same for both genders.

[Mladen]

One way or another, the Avengers as we knew them are done...

I finally went to see this and I liked it. Despite some issues with the plot and the "seen that" factor, this was rather nice. In some aspects, I enjoyed this more than the first one. While the first one represents the peak of introductory part of MCU, this one pours plots left and right, giving us a lot to anticipate. Some notes:

1. LOVED character storyarcs. If anything was done beautifully in this movie, that was juggling between different issues of each Avenger and basically their psychological differentiation. At one point, we all agree they are superheroes and they become one, but this movie beautifully separated them and formed several rather distinctive individuals.

2. The beginning was clever. Instead of using half an hour to bring all of them together and tell us what they have been doing for the past 3? years, they used AoS and theta protocol for that and in one cool minute of TV show was said what might need us quite some time on the big screen.

3. The ladies. This is always something that I am carefully looking at. Female characters, especially in these movies, are where you do it right or fail miserably. Condensation of SHIELD in Maria Hill was nicely done, especially given the fact that we were bound to hear so many things about Avengers. Ah and the beauty of not having girlfriends around... I have no idea whether Portman and Paltrow just had it enough, or this was a deliberate move by Whedon, but when Thor and Tony were talking about their ladies, all I was hearing is

"My girl is more redundant in this movie. I have a new secretary and she is brunette"

"No, my girl is more redundant. I come to Earth for the second time and leave her alone"

"Completely wrong. I have both Jarvis and Maria to make my girl redundant.

"And I have that crazy professor... And, I have that Chinese scientist to admire my abs"

Luckily for me, we will always have Peggy Carter :love:

4. Casting and acting were superb. Honestly, this is how superhero movie should be cast and acted. James Spader was phenomenal as Ultron and there is something so wonderful in his voice that you kinda forget that they actually pulled Alan Shore card from Boston legal and allowed Spader to do some monologues. The twins were nice... The blonde guy had its moments and the Olsen baby sister made believable Scarlet Witch. Who would tell? My biggest complaint is perhaps that I would like that for Vision, they have chosen James D'Arcy instead of Bettany.

Overall, the movie was good and enjoyable. I will close one eye for some plot holes and allow myself to enjoy the nice prelude to all the movies in the following years (and those we will never see :) I have to go there)

Oh, and I almost forgot. We consider men shirtless scenes sign of equality now? Hmmm, interesting perspective... Well, if we can't have female superhero movies, we should have tight suits and abs. Oh, the equality...