Batman and Superman IV: "Do you bleed?" "Only on the home release..." (Now with SPOILERS)

[GeorgeIAF]

Batman learns from the Flash that in fact Lois Lane is Superman's biggest weakness, not kryptonite. We see towards the end of the movie when he talks to WW that he knows something is coming, after talking to Lex.

I understand some of your complaints ... maybe the Director's Cut will solve alot of plot problems (they released a clip already on YT, called "Communion" which explains why Lex looks so insane in the prison and why he tells Bruce that someone is coming and that the clock is ticking), from what i've read around the internet, 30 minutes were cut from the movie, maybe that's why it feels poorly edited at some points. I think they should have went with a R-rating for BvS and be done with it, instead of cutting it to fit the PG-13. I heard that the Director's Cut will include Barbara Gordon, Dan Amboyer playing Hal Jordan (as a drone pilot, before he joins the GLC) and a gorish nightmare Bruce has with the Joker brutally beating Jason Todd to the death and burning down the Wayne Manor afterwards. I don't know what to think about these, it might be only fan-wishing.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Well this was a complete mess. Staggeringly so.

I was sitting there thinking "wow this movie suuucks", until it got to the fight. The fight was cool, but lasted about 5 minutes. The scene where Batman fights all the guys holding Martha prisoner was amazing. Seriously the best Batman scene I've seen. Wonder Woman was cool too.

The rest of the movie though... Jesus fucking Christ what a mess.

4/10 It wasn't awful, but it was not good.

[Kalbear]

Quote

Sorry, maybe it's just me, but I don't generally assume that everyone who loves someone will always be following them to protect them. Or is it just Superman who's a stalker? 

It's established like in the first 15 minutes of the movie that yes, Superman is a stalker. Lois Lane being threatened by Lex's goons and superman comes to save the day in about 20 seconds. Lex made a calculated bet based on prior information that he obtained directly. I don't see how this is at all even odd; this is one of the most specifically covered points in the entire movie. 

[drawkcabi]

I really got to see this movie now I think. But definitely on DVD in the safety of my home where I can pause and take breaks for minutes, hours, or days...

[sifth]

I actually kind of liked this film, which is kind of shocking since I hated MoS. I only have 2 issues with this film. The first is that Wonder Woman clearly had no plot. Don't get me wrong she was awesome during the fight at the end, but she quite literally was doing nothing in the entire film up until that point. If they wanted her in the movie they should have made her an actual character and not just put in the film for no reason, aside from the obvious one. lol

 

The second was that Batman killed people. I know Batman originally started out this way, but it's been nearly 30 years since we had a Batman who murdered so easily and didn't care at all. I know there are a dozen fan theories out there on why he does it, but if you listen to some of Zack Snyder's interviews he says he mostly had Batman kill, because it was "cool", which tells me that this guy just clearly doesn't understand Batman.

Other than that, I liked pretty much everything else.

Just my 2 cents though.

 

 

[The Drunkard]

I didn't hate it, but it was pretty meh. The opening part in Metropolis was good, Batman and Alfred were good (Batfleck > Baleman), and the Batman vs Superman fight didn't disappoint, but otherwise I was uninterested. Lois is boring, I don't like this always-grim Superman, don't know why WW was in the movie, Doomsday didn't feel threatening at all (although I'm struggling to remember any superhero villain that didn't feel this way), and Eisenberg had zero gravitas and didn't seem Lex-y at all. 

"Martha" was really lame. They never resolve what drove them to fight each other. Batman is still a brutal vigilante and Superman is still a god capable of taking out the world, yet it's all cool now because he has a mum. Surely there was a better reason to have them team up.

Also, about Lex, I'm hoping he's radically changed by his time in prison, but that "ding ding ding" shit doesn't leave me hopeful. 

This guy would've been better:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm2/plexd11/lexluthormanofsteel.jpg

[DaveSumm]

I think, having digested it for a week, I'll give it a 7/10. The loss of points isn't really for the same reasons as most though, I don't see it as a mess at all. I said in my original post that the movie is about how the world reacts to Superman, where Batman stands in this argument, and Lex's attempts to antagonise these feelings, and very few scenes in it aren't directly related to that central premise. I respect what the movie attempts to do, and a lot of scenes are very effective.

Where it really falls down is that, in order to do this justice, you need someone who can do depth of character. Snyder really can't. You need to very clearly establish the two personalities and how this dynamic works, and there are just too few scenes where the two protagonists discuss why they feel the way they do. The fact that Superman has so few lines and we're still struggling to pin down how we feel about Cavill's portrayal is telling, Superman watches all of this debate around him and barely utters a word on his position. When he does, it's often more for plots sake to nudge the battle ever closer.

And this is my issue with the overall debate around Snyder's Superman; some would argue that he needs freshening up and that the traits of the old Superman are boring. I would argue that Snyder is actually trying to give us the same Superman, but he just isn't interested in portraying any of these old traits. They're still there, under the surface. Superman still can't stand by and watch a bus crash without helping, despite what Pa Kent told him. Faora tells us in Man of Steel that his morality is a weakness, in much the same way Zod operates in Superman II. This is the same Superman. He hasn't been replaced with one who has any meaningful differences, he's a cardboard cutout. Snyder is just more interested in the imagery and styling of these characters, not in analysing what makes them tick. This makes Snyder well suited for some of the tasks of making a superhero film ...... just possibly not this superhero film. I think the concept still works, and I'd even argue that Snyder might still be the right director for the Justice League. But he wasn't the right director for this movie. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I have no problem with the portrayal of Superman or Batman in this movie. In fact Batman is possibly my favourite version of the character so far. 

At least the movie attempted to delve slightly into Supermans character and give him a bit of a dilemma as to whether he should just pack it all up and go into hiding or not. I mean, its basically the same issues as the first movie but at least its consistent. 

There IS a good movie in there somewhere. Its just that they screwed it up by crowbarring all this plot into it to push things along. Characters with crazy motivations and plans which do nothing but push the plot in the direction WB need it to go.

I mean:

- The reason for the fight in the end was ridiculous. Its like they couldn't figure out a good enough reason for them to go at it, despite setting it up from the first minute. So instead they wedged a kidnap plot in there. Lame.

- The U-Turn 'Martha' moment was awful. It made no sense. Yes I can understand the basic idea of why it would stop Batman, but to go from wanting to flat out murder someone to wanting to be their best friend in the space of 30 seconds is ludicrous.~

- What was the purpose of Doomsday other than to make a big fight at the end? What would Lex hope to gain from it? He is clearly unleashing a huge monster into the world, even though he is obviously concerned about his public image. It made no sense. 
Doomsday was poorly designed as well, I have a real suspicion it was a last minute job, which is why its so unoriginal. 

- WW was intruiging but served no purpose whatsoever other than as a way of creating interest in future movies. Her turning up to save the day was heading shaking.

- The nuking of Superman scene was poorly handled and seemingly a leftover bit of an old script. Its a scene taken directly from Dark Knight Returns, but where in the comic the nuke seems to kill him, and you genuinely think hes dead, in the way they copied it and did the graveyard scene in the movie, here instead Superman recovers within seconds. Almost like they didn't know what do with that old story element.

- All JL elements were clumsily handled and it completely spoiled the flow of the movie. Superman flies off to fight batman.. but instead of carrying on that bit of tension you throw in a 5 minute scene of someone opening emails!?! WTF?! 

The Flash future dream sequence came out of nowhere, just confused everyone and went on for a long time before giving even a hint it was a dream. The use of dreams as a narrative device was again lazy, is there no other way of expressing those ideas??

The graveyard scene at the end was horrible too, Bruce talking about his friends and the future and stuff. It was so false and clearly meant to create anticipation, but it didnt, not even a little, because if I had endure another fight like the one with Doomsday I think my brain would melt out my ears. For the life of me I cannot imagine watching a JL movie now, it would be like someone playing Avengers backwards on a VHS. 

SO yeah, there were the elements of a good movie in there, but they were isolated and confused. i wonder what the process of making this movie was. I seem to rememeber initial reports being it was just Superman.. then they added Batman.. then later there were reports of it being a JL movie. Maybe Snyder got screwed by WB.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 Finally caught it yesterday at a matinee. More or less agree with kalbear's review. Entertaining and interesting in parts, but it is ultimately hamstrung by pacing and narrative issues. Unnecessarily complex in that the complexities don't really add much to the narrative. I'm beginning to get the impression that Snyder kind of suffers from many of the same issues GRRM suffers from, in that he could really use a good editor or story director to keep him on point. One thing I have to thank this film for is leading back to a forgotten classic. Just picked this up in trade this morning, and I'm enjoying it  much more than the film.

 http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1344237762l/154765.jpg

[The King in Black]

Not even wasting words on it. Just leaving this here 

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11120/111202657/4705979-11796171_10154047365994046_4859301041488670167_n.jpg

 

[The BlackBear]

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4173&p=.htm

Dropped 68.4% this weekend.

[Fez]

3 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4173&p=.htm

Dropped 68.4% this weekend.

As I mentioned in the Suicide Squad thread, the movie is on track to make a huge amount of money. But its also looking like its going to make a lot less than The Avengers movies and the other biggest hits last year; and considering this was supposed to be DC's Avengers movie to kick-off their entire extended universe, I gotta think there's some pretty disappointed studio execs right now.

Because if this ends up with about 2/3rds (maybe a bit less) the box office of The Avengers movies, there's no reason not to think that the various upcoming DC extended universe movies make around 2/3rds of the Marvel extended universe movies. Which would mean a box office of around $400 million of each one, which is just not enough for a modern blockbuster with tons of special effects and tons of marketing.

No wonder Suicide Squad is going into re-shoots to add more humor.

[Maithanet]

I said when the movie came out that if this movie made less than a billion dollars that Warner Brothers/DC should be worried and ashamed.  After two weeks, it is virtually guaranteed that they will not hit that mark.  Yes, a movie featuring Batman AND Superman has failed to make as much money as Johnny Depp's stupid Alice in Wonderland movie. 

[Rhom]

3 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I said when the movie came out that if this movie made less than a billion dollars that Warner Brothers/DC should be worried and ashamed.  After two weeks, it is virtually guaranteed that they will not hit that mark.  Yes, a movie featuring Batman AND Superman has failed to make as much money as Johnny Depp's stupid Alice in Wonderland movie. 

The movie dropped 68% from week one to two.  Kinda what I talked about a couple pages back.  I figured it would have a big opening out of the curiosity factor, but then the second week would tell the story.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

If the numbers are bad, what do we think is the potential fallout? Justice League movies cancelled? Individual movies taken off the roster?

[The BlackBear]

I should think JL is locked in, it's way too late to cancel it. Has it started production? But it'll likely be rewritten a bit to change the tone or trim the fat.

[Fez]

25 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

If the numbers are bad, what do we think is the potential fallout? Justice League movies cancelled? Individual movies taken off the roster?

I doubt much changes yet. Maybe they hold off on doing much pre-production for movies that are 3+ years away from release, and see how Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, and the first Justice League movie does before committing resources. Maybe also keep a tighter reign on expenses for Wonder Woman and the Justice League. There could also be some re-writes to try to copy some aspects of the Marvel movies (like not being so deadly serious at all times).

[Rhom]

I really hope this doesn't derail the Batfleck written and directed solo film.  Surely, a WB exec can look at all these reviews and say "What's the one thing everyone praises?" and then allow him to go forward. 

[The Unborn]

12 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I really hope this doesn't derail the Batfleck written and directed solo film.  Surely, a WB exec can look at all these reviews and say "What's the one thing everyone praises?" and then allow him to go forward. 

http://comicbook.com/2016/04/02/kevin-smith-thinks-ben-affleck-could-get-an-oscar-nomination-or-/

 

WB saw the reviews, heard the critics. The last thing they'll do is scrap the Batfleck movie. He is the one universally acclaimed bit from the movie. They got a winner with him. Believe me, we'll get a Batfleck movie in 3-4 years top.

 

I hope when is all said and done, WB will finally do a Batman Beyond movie, with Affleck as old Bruce Wayne. That could be cool.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Is Affleck even signed on to do a Batman movie? I thought it was only JL movies? 

Either way I think they've screwed the pooch with Batman, they've put him in a strange position now you have this large world full of superheroes and massive monsters. How can he go back to what was the interesting part of his life, solving crimes and fighting smaller villains?