Mexal Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 8 minutes ago, Altherion said: Abedin is Weiner's (estranged) wife. They weren't looking for her emails at all, they were looking for his. And they sat on this information more than 20 years and only came out with it when it was important to a presidential election? Stranger things have happened, but it's just not plausible. With the amount of money floating around such elections, one can pay a dozen people to make any completely unverifiable claims one wants for less than a rounding error on the total budget. Uh, she's been suing him for awhile now. This isn't new. It was written up 5 months ago and no one seemed to care. Looks like she's coming out now because she's tired of everyone ignoring it and scared that Trump could win. The fact that she is doing this fully knowing all the shit she's going to get for doing this should lend a little credence. And lets stop with this 20 years shit. 20 years ago she was 13. And after she became an adult, it's not easy to accuse a powerful man at 18 years old of rape and expect to come out of it successfully. This is a man who sues EVERYONE. Who's own attorney threatened the daily beast if there was even a hint of Trump and rape in the same sentence. You think an 18 year old who was raped at 13 years old would have the ability to take on Donald Trump? You think she'd be in a better position at 25? 30? I'm so tired of Trump supporters dismissing accusations by using time. How many actual rapes happen every day that go unreported? 2/3rds. How many accusers of rape actually go to jail? Not many. I have no idea if she's telling the truth. I do know that dismissing it because it happened 20 years ago is stupid and lacks any understanding of what women who are sexually assaulted go through when they lodge a formal complaint, let alone a formal complaint against a billionaire in the public eye with a history of destroying his accusers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 7 minutes ago, Altherion said: Abedin is Weiner's (estranged) wife. They weren't looking for her emails at all, they were looking for his. And they sat on this information more than 20 years and only came out with it when it was important to a presidential election? Stranger things have happened, but it's just not plausible. With the amount of money floating around such elections, one can pay a dozen people to make any completely unverifiable claims one wants for less than a rounding error on the total budget. Are you fucking kidding me? Are you trying to suggest that it's abnormal for victims of sexual violence to maintain silence out of fear or shame? Do you not realize how heartbreakingly common it is? Further, are you blind to the reasons a person might stay silent when the perpetrator was a powerful man? Have you heard the story of Bill Cosby? I mean seriously, dismissing a potential victim because she was unable to speak up for whatever reason for 20 years is truly fucked up and yet another example of pro rape behavior that contributes to the never ending rape culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, Altherion said: Abedin is Weiner's (estranged) wife. They weren't looking for her emails at all, they were looking for his. And they sat on this information more than 20 years and only came out with it when it was important to a presidential election? Stranger things have happened, but it's just not plausible. With the amount of money floating around such elections, one can pay a dozen people to make any completely unverifiable claims one wants for less than a rounding error on the total budget. I think you're unfamiliar with Epsteins actions and how blackmail works. He has no blackmail leverage without also employing a witness, that witness has also come forward and corroborated the testimony of the girl who was raped. there is actually an excellent relatively short British (fictional) film that clearly articulates the complexities of blackmail used against individuals engaging in illegal sexual behavior. It's called "victim" and I believe it is on hulu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 8 minutes ago, Altherion said: And they sat on this information more than 20 years and only came out with it when it was important to a presidential election? Stranger things have happened, but it's just not plausible. With the amount of money floating around such elections, one can pay a dozen people to make any completely unverifiable claims one wants for less than a rounding error on the total budget. I thought the same thing - but one could say the same thing about Jill Harth, about Alicia Machado, about the People reporter, about pretty much all of the accusers. Shockingly, people do things when the stakes rise. Clinton's affairs didn't come out until HE was running for President (and thereafter) - there was almost nothing about them before that. Weiner's affairs didn't come out until after he was in office. It's not particularly uncommon, and it's especially not uncommon with Trump given how many other women have come out with a similar pattern. As to the 'completely unverifiable claims' - well, that's not entirely accurate. For starters we have a second person willing to testify as a witness AND another person related to the Epstein case who is also willing to testify. We have the Epstein case itself. We can use things like details about the house to at least immediately establish lack of credibility. There are a lot of reasonable ways in which it can be shown to be immediately false or potentially false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 even though early voting has started, I expect a big Trump story to hit this weekend, ala the GWB DUI story in 2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Also, in an effort to be fair, here is an article from the Daily Beast providing some more facts on the people who were pushing the Trump rape case. It doesn't look great. I believe this was before the witness came forward though. Tonight should certainly be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Can this election just be over? Every year big NY firms volunteer to do an Election Protection Hotline. It's non partisan, and basically gives folks a central place, manned by attorneys, that can answer questions on election day and the day before. It's usually kind of a snooze (but a great way to rack up meaningful pro bono hours for transactional attorneys). This year I'm expecting it to be quite lively. That is scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 7 minutes ago, Kalbear said: I thought the same thing - but one could say the same thing about Jill Harth, about Alicia Machado, about the People reporter, about pretty much all of the accusers. Shockingly, people do things when the stakes rise. Clinton's affairs didn't come out until HE was running for President (and thereafter) - there was almost nothing about them before that. Weiner's affairs didn't come out until after he was in office. It's not particularly uncommon, and it's especially not uncommon with Trump given how many other women have come out with a similar pattern. As to the 'completely unverifiable claims' - well, that's not entirely accurate. For starters we have a second person willing to testify as a witness AND another person related to the Epstein case who is also willing to testify. We have the Epstein case itself. We can use things like details about the house to at least immediately establish lack of credibility. There are a lot of reasonable ways in which it can be shown to be immediately false or potentially false. As I said, stranger things have happened. Given Trump's attitude towards women, it is reasonably likely that he has acted inappropriately towards them at times. However, this accusation is of one the most taboo crimes in our society. If the media wants to preserve what little is left of their credibility, they cannot act on it without evidence. Again, one can easily arrange for a dozen people to make accusations and testify as witnesses -- take a look at the kind of individuals associated with this case in the Daily Beast link above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, Altherion said: As I said, stranger things have happened. Given Trump's attitude towards women, it is reasonably likely that he has acted inappropriately towards them at times. However, this accusation is of one the most taboo crimes in our society. If the media wants to preserve what little is left of their credibility, they cannot act on it without evidence. Again, one can easily arrange for a dozen people to make accusations and testify as witnesses -- take a look at the kind of individuals associated with this case in the Daily Beast link above. Not sure that's true. The witness signed an affidavit that if proven false, she goes to jail for perjury. And when you accuse someone like Trump, have to believe they're going to try to destroy her story and prove her a liar. So we will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, Altherion said: As I said, stranger things have happened. Given Trump's attitude towards women, it is reasonably likely that he has acted inappropriately towards them at times. However, this accusation is of one the most taboo crimes in our society. If the media wants to preserve what little is left of their credibility, they cannot act on it without evidence. Again, one can easily arrange for a dozen people to make accusations and testify as witnesses -- take a look at the kind of individuals associated with this case in the Daily Beast link above. How is the media acting on it exactly? Announcing that this woman is holding a press conference of sorts to discuss it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 30 minutes ago, Commodore said: even though early voting has started, I expect a big Trump story to hit this weekend, ala the GWB DUI story in 2000 I agree, actually. I suspect there is some serious oppo being held back for the final week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Let's not pretend powerful men haven't gotten away with sexual assault for years, with multiple people, before anything is ever brought up. You simply cannot ignore the sheer number of people coming forward and the multiple witnesses who have sworn on it by saying 'but it was a long time ago.' Seriously. Shame on you. The Donald Defense going around on the topic of sexual fucking assault is absolutely disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 Pretty good article here about the challenges reporters have had in trying to cover the alleged rape story. Quote The accuser in this case is anonymous, and the suit is filed under a pseudonym in New York. A previous case filed in California used the name “Katie Johnson.” To accuse someone in print of forcibly raping a child is about as serious a charge as can be made. To do that with an anonymous accuser would be an extraordinary step, putting the journalist’s reputation on the line. One senior national reporter who has covered both campaigns said that the anonymity was the main stumbling block. “If it’s something that’s this damaging to a candidate, you better be sure, and she’s anonymous,” the reporter said, asking for anonymity to talk openly about the decision-making process. “Look, if she came out and she would do an interview, that would be different, but she’s an anonymous plaintiff.” Its totally within her rights to be anonymous of course. But with the difficulty reporters have had in talking to other witnesses and relevant people to the case, it makes sense that they'd be hesitant to cover it before now. But if she's going public tonight, that changes; now they can just say "press conference held about alleged rape" and not need to put their reputations up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, Mexal said: Not sure that's true. The witness signed an affidavit that if proven false, she goes to jail for perjury. And when you accuse someone like Trump, have to believe they're going to try to destroy her story and prove her a liar. So we will see. The most important things that the witnesses allege are completely unverifiable. It is true that they have to be careful to get the facts which can be verified right (e.g. it would not do to claim Trump was at some place on a given night when he was really at another place and seen by many people), but even those can be chalked up to a bad memory (how many details of events from 20 years ago do most people remember correctly?). 4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said: How is the media acting on it exactly? Announcing that this woman is holding a press conference of sorts to discuss it? They are not. The whole reason got into this topic (which I honestly don't want to discuss because some people here get really offended by what I think are self-evident statements) is that I wanted to point out why the media has only barely touched this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 the testimony of a solitary witness, if believed, is sufficient 'verification' in law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 19 minutes ago, Inigima said: I agree, actually. I suspect there is some serious oppo being held back for the final week. I don't think that's the case at all. Too late for major oppo to really do anything. Last weekend would have been the ideal time for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 10 minutes ago, Fez said: Pretty good article here about the challenges reporters have had in trying to cover the alleged rape story. Its totally within her rights to be anonymous of course. But with the difficulty reporters have had in talking to other witnesses and relevant people to the case, it makes sense that they'd be hesitant to cover it before now. But if she's going public tonight, that changes; now they can just say "press conference held about alleged rape" and not need to put their reputations up. There is also the complication, for the press, that legally trump is probably a _victim_ of blackmail, and it complicates things for trump to immediately claim he was the victimized party as soon as the media covers it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 28 minutes ago, Altherion said: As I said, stranger things have happened. Given Trump's attitude towards women, it is reasonably likely that he has acted inappropriately towards them at times. However, this accusation is of one the most taboo crimes in our society. If the media wants to preserve what little is left of their credibility, they cannot act on it without evidence. Again, one can easily arrange for a dozen people to make accusations and testify as witnesses -- take a look at the kind of individuals associated with this case in the Daily Beast link above. It's not just Trump's attitudes towards women - it's that he is on record as having raped two separate women before. This isn't an attitude thing. He may not have been tried with a crime but that was because in both cases the accusers agreed to drop the charges. And that's just what we know about. And that's not counting the now 13 other cases of sexual assault and 30+ cases of doing things like going into an underage girl's locker room or telling 10 year olds that he'd be dating them in 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 1 hour ago, lokisnow said: The case against trump hinges on Epstein using witnesses to observe rich men statutorily raping underage girls and thus Epstein then was able to blackmail them and maintain a book of blackmail victims. her holding a press conference and forcing the media to cover what they've studiously ignored terrifies me because Bill Clinton is a known Epstein confederate. Basically if the media covers it trump just has to allege that bill Clinton also raped underage girls Epstein recruited for his blackmail schemes. Doesn't have to be true just has to sound true and trump and the media will happily shift focus to bill Clinton for the entire final news cycle. That would be a scorched earth approach, but to do that wouldn't he have to admit that he was involved? Seems like a no win for him. He pretty much has no choice but to deny, whether he did it or not. It's slightly problematic to worry about Clinton being exposed as well, from where I'm sitting. If he was involved, then I hope that info comes to light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 14 minutes ago, Kalbear said: I don't think that's the case at all. Too late for major oppo to really do anything. Last weekend would have been the ideal time for it. Yeah, there may be stuff coming out but stuff is always coming out. It'll rattle around the politically concerned and insular sites but I don't think there's anything as evocative and striking as the Pussy Tapes or the parade of women coming. The supposed N-Word tape is just Hillary's new Whitey Whale Tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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