Gun Control III: the Hedge Knight Rises.

[Yukle]

12 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

This would suggest that between 89,600 and 102,400 people would be walking into school in the US every morning armed with a weapon, a mental disorder and military training! "

Perhaps 20% of students could be given concealed guns in case one of their teachers goes on a rampage.

[Which Tyler]

1 hour ago, Yukle said:

Perhaps 20% of students could be given concealed guns in case one of their teachers goes on a rampage.

Worth noting that those figures are for PTSD alone - no mention of work-related stress (very high in teachers) or any other mental health issues,

 

 

We now know that standard cop training and a pistol isn't enough to storm a building and face-off against a nutter with an assault rifle (I'm shocked, shocked I tells you); so if we HAVE to arm the teachers - how much training is appropriate? SWAT? Special Forces? Marine?

I would rather suspect that somewhat less than 20% of ex-military would have the appropriate training; let alone whatever percentage of those go into teaching - so where do the rest of them go for training? I suppose at least, with 1 in 5 teachers armed, they wouldn't be expected to storm the building on their ownsome or be hung up to dry by their boss who really should know better - but still.

 

There's no easy, one-stop-shop answer to America's gun problem, but there are lots of relatively easy places to start. Ban high capacity magazines, and anything that can make a gun fully automatic; introduce mental health checks (increase the fee). A decade later; ban semi-automatic, and reduce the maximum magazine capacity, increase wait times (and fee) for a licence; formalise a way of holding stat.s for gun crime and join up the thinking for licence application. A decade later require a criminal records check to get a gun, put serial numbers on all guns, register them to an individual (who has some really awkward questions to answer if their gun is used and they haven't already reported it stolen - and been investigated), increase the health checks necessary; include an eye test, increase the fee. A decade later put a limit on the number of guns and the amount of ammo that can be bought in one go, introduce legislation on the appropriate storage of both guns and amunition. A decade later, reduce that limit, and place a limit on the number of guns one person is allowed to own.

All the while, you have an amnesty where anyone can hand in any gun (or other weapon, or ammunition), no questions asked, and it will be destoyed.

[mormont]

Here's the thing: the 'arm the teachers' idea is so incredibly stupid, so full of obvious holes, that any one of us could write pages and pages off the cuff about why it's literally unworkable, let alone whether it's a good idea.

But it's not supposed to be workable. The Republicans have no intention of making it work. It's a distraction, a holding tactic. A way to pretend that there's a solution to this that isn't gun control. At least for long enough that something comes up to change the subject. 

The NRA and the Republicans are shitting themselves because they can't figure out why this time, people care. I can't either, to be frank. But let's not pass up the opportunity it presents to save lives. 

[Fragile Bird]

Right at this moment Trump is telling people at the CPAC conference, "they are going to take away your 2nd amendment rights", and urging the attendees to go out and fight in the mid-terms like they never have before.

[Ormond]

I completely agree that arming teachers is an incredibly stupid and ultimately counterproductive idea.

However, I find the arguments about PTSD a bit offensive because people with PTSD are not generally violent at all. And the somewhat increased rate of violence among those with PTSD is largely not a direct result of the PTSD but instead of the alcohol and drug abuse that are associated with it.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/inside-the-criminal-mind/201404/ptsd-explanation-violent-behavior

https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/co-occurring/research_on_ptsd_and_violence.asp

To use PTSD as an argument about why arming teachers is a bad idea is to play into the hands of the NRA types who want to blame all of this on "mental illness" instead of this country's gun culture. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

There's no easy, one-stop-shop answer to America's gun problem, but there are lots of relatively easy places to start. Ban high capacity magazines, and anything that can make a gun fully automatic; introduce mental health checks (increase the fee). A decade later; ban semi-automatic, and reduce the maximum magazine capacity, increase wait times (and fee) for a licence; formalise a way of holding stat.s for gun crime and join up the thinking for licence application. A decade later require a criminal records check to get a gun, put serial numbers on all guns, register them to an individual (who has some really awkward questions to answer if their gun is used and they haven't already reported it stolen - and been investigated), increase the health checks necessary; include an eye test, increase the fee. A decade later put a limit on the number of guns and the amount of ammo that can be bought in one go, introduce legislation on the appropriate storage of both guns and amunition. A decade later, reduce that limit, and place a limit on the number of guns one person is allowed to own.

All the while, you have an amnesty where anyone can hand in any gun (or other weapon, or ammunition), no questions asked, and it will be destoyed.

Thanks for validating in full the "slippery slope" argument of gun rights advocates. I couldn't have demonstrated it better myself, truth be told.

So THAT is why the pro-gun lobby is against even "sensible" gun legislation. Because they know that something as innocuous as a national firearms registry is just the prelude to everything you outlined above.

[Larry of the Lawn]

42 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Thanks for validating in full the "slippery slope" argument of gun rights advocates. I couldn't have demonstrated it better myself, truth be told.

So THAT is why the pro-gun lobby is against even "sensible" gun legislation. Because they know that something as innocuous as a national firearms registry is just the prelude to everything you outlined above.

Right so in the meantime we should probably just get used these school shootings.  Let's all just admit that the price of freedom is often written in blood and that it's actually worth it to have classrooms of dead kids a few times a year in exchange for not messing with gun regulations.

Plus the shootings are great for gun manufacturers - there's always a rush to buy guns and ammo after one of these tragedies.  So the shootings are good for the economy and for freedom.

 

[Which Tyler]

Meh - call be a bleeding heart liberal (I am one); but I do tend to think that fewer dead children is generally a good thing, not a bad one.

 

ETA: hang on... You're just discovering now that people who want guns banned might want guns banned? Really?

Surely that doesn't surprise anyone.

[Week]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Right so in the meantime we should probably just get used these school shootings.  Let's all just admit that the price of freedom is often written in blood and that it's actually worth it to have classrooms of dead kids a few times a year in exchange for not messing with gun regulations.

Plus the shootings are great for gun manufacturers - there's always a rush to buy guns and ammo after one of these tragedies.  So the shootings are good for the economy and for freedom.

 

Exactly. If FNR's slippery-slope straw-man argument wins the day -- then I'd ask for 2A enthusiasts to enthusiastically celebrate these shootings as the glorious price of freedom. 

[Erik of Hazelfield]

Funny. If the US would follow that slippery slope, then in 40 years they’d still not have as tight regulations as countries like Sweden or the UK have today.

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

Anyone advocating arming teachers or more armed guards is missing that these shooters don't care if they're killed or not.  They either take their own life or want to go out in blaze of glory.  So in addition to all the obvious problems regarding the efficacy of armed teachers during a shooting, its not even going to be a fucking deterrent.

[DMC]

No, it's a deterrent because school shooters are cowards.  That logic is insane inarguable.

[mormont]

I love that Trump - a man who if he ever wound up in a live fire situation would 1000% have to change his underwear after being brought round from a dead faint - has decided to pontificate on other people's courage.

How are those bone spurs, Donald, you gutless liar?

Let's remind ourselves how a real man reacts under pressure.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 hours ago, mormont said:

Here's the thing: the 'arm the teachers' idea is so incredibly stupid, so full of obvious holes, that any one of us could write pages and pages off the cuff about why it's literally unworkable, let alone whether it's a good idea.

But it's not supposed to be workable. The Republicans have no intention of making it work. It's a distraction, a holding tactic. A way to pretend that there's a solution to this that isn't gun control. At least for long enough that something comes up to change the subject. 

Quote

The NRA and the Republicans are shitting themselves because they can't figure out why this time, people care. I can't either, to be frank. But let's not pass up the opportunity it presents to save lives. 

I could be mistaken, but there seems to be three combined variables to this shooting that I don't recall seeing in others school shootings. First, people's reaction, and especially that of the victims, feels different. Normally people are sad, shocked, somber, etc., but this time the overwhelming emotion seems to be rage. Rage typically occurs with the hardcore gun owners, who immediately get mad at the prospect of having their guns taken away. But this time the lion's share of the rage seems to be coming from the survivors and the victims' families. Second, the families affected by this tragedy are very wealthy. In a better world that wouldn't matter, but we know that it does. It's similar to how the news goes crazy when a white child is abducted while usually down playing or flat out ignoring when a minority child goes missing. As @Ormond said previously, class is playing a role. Lastly, the audio is chilling. Maybe I'm forgetting previous examples, but I don't recall hearing kids live recording the shooting and their reactions to it. Some kids have posted the videos they record to say goodbye to their parents and loved ones. It's really powerful stuff. I don't think any one of these single variables would cause a unique reaction unlike previous mass shootings, but maybe the combination of all three is why the public seems to be reacting differently. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

26 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Anyone advocating arming teachers or more armed guards is missing that these shooters don't care if they're killed or not.  They either take their own life or want to go out in blaze of glory.  So in addition to all the obvious problems regarding the efficacy of armed teachers during a shooting, its not even going to be a fucking deterrent.

Yup, it seems that in most instances these school shooters have the same mentality as people who aspire for a suicide via police officers. The only difference is they want to take out a few of their classmates along the way, and sometimes it's specific people and other times it's just whoever is in their path of destruction. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Stat time:

The population of the United States accounts for 4.4% of the global population. The United States has 42% of the worlds' privately owned guns. 

Makes one wonder what's so different between us and the rest of the developed world.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, mormont said:

Let's remind ourselves how a real man reacts under pressure.

In turn, that immediately reminded me of Dubya being subjected to shoe-throwing, and the bastard both dodging better than Austin Powers then totally keeping his cool.  Dude learned a lot from My Pet Goat.

[Darth Richard II]

Dude I was thinking bout W's show dodge the other day. That was impressive.

[TheKitttenGuard]

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Thanks for validating in full the "slippery slope" argument of gun rights advocates. I couldn't have demonstrated it better myself, truth be told.

So THAT is why the pro-gun lobby is against even "sensible" gun legislation. Because they know that something as innocuous as a national firearms registry is just the prelude to everything you outlined above.

Why does not the NRA back mammoth defense cuts if so concern of Governmenr tyranny? Why are giving the Tyranny better and better weapons.

What about Nuclear Disarmament so we can get the Tyranny off weapons that kill millions of people in an instant?

[MercenaryChef]

there is a certain amount of collateral damage that the pro-gun folks will accept before changing their views. they are so fearful of not having guns that they will accept  collateral damage to further their own selfishness.