The Expanse #4: Amazon Rising (spoilers for book only up to last episode)

[karaddin]

3 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Fuck it, I’ll back him up: I think she’s pretty bad in The Expanse. Haven’t seen her in anything else. A lot of what you mention @karaddin speaks to the production as a whole, it’s commendable that they shot for a character like you describe, but I don’t think she pulls it off. It’s legitimate to question how bad a grasp of English an actor can have before it affects a performance. She swears very unnaturally, and Bobby’s testimony scene where she says “whatever I fucking well like” was so bad I can’t believe they didn’t reshoot.

I could understand if you feel the accent is too thick for your ease of understanding, but there is no indication anywhere that she has the slightest problem with understanding the English language, or with speaking it in a way that completely fluent within the accent/voice.

Accent is not fluency and she absolutely has a strong accent and a very distinctive voice, obviously that's going to come down to being a matter of personal preference and it sucks if that's not working for you but completely fair. Accusing her of lacking an adequate grasp of English is just impugning her though and I don't think it's fair. I've never struggled to understand a single word she's said and personally that same scene that didn't work for you was fantastic for me, I loved that as did a lot of people I know.

[Jace, Extat]

She says "wherever I goddamn like." Wasn't hard for me to hear her.

[Filippa Eilhart]

it’s really easy to put on subtitles. We watch everything subtitled, and john’s excuse when people make fun of him for having subtitles on for British shows is “Kama doesn’t understand English”, lol, but honestly a lot of TV isn’t very clear and subtitles help even if it’s your native language so I really don’t get the “I don’t understand her accent”.

[Heartofice]

19 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Fuck it, I’ll back him up: I think she’s pretty bad in The Expanse. Haven’t seen her in anything else. A lot of what you mention @karaddin speaks to the production as a whole, it’s commendable that they shot for a character like you describe, but I don’t think she pulls it off. It’s legitimate to question how bad a grasp of English an actor can have before it affects a performance. She swears very unnaturally, and Bobby’s testimony scene where she says “whatever I fucking well like” was so bad I can’t believe they didn’t reshoot.

Glad I'm not alone, though your entire character will now be criticised for such an opinion.

Maybe she is much better in Iranian, it is a possibility, she seemed to do better in House of Sand and Fog when she didn't attempt to be speaking English. I don't think that is a great excuse though, thinking about all the fantastic foreign actors and actresses around who don't appear to have the same problems. 

The swearing I agree is a real problem, mainly because her voice is so raspy and sandpaperish that I worry that when she shouts something might break, but also that the words do not come naturally to her. Nothing she says or does feels particularly natural. 

And you know, call me a bigot or whatever Karaddin is insinuating, but one of the things I notice about great actresses is their, and call me crazy.. the ability to act, and communicate emotion. She can't do it. It might be her accent, it might be her lack of skill, it might be her potential smoking habit or it might be plastic surgery in her face. 

But you know, we all have different opinions and are entitled to them (well I agree with that, even if some other don't) and I genuinely wish Shohreh Aghdashloo well in her attempt to win the Emmy for 'Actress wearing most colourful clothing', it is something she truly deserves.  

[Corvinus85]

So anyway, for those who do love these characters, I see that the trailer answers the question about where Amos will be when a certain event happens.

And yes, Cas Anvar wasn't shown much, and had no lines in the trailer, but Nadine Nicole was promoted to series regular as Clarrissa, and she is barely in the trailer. I think there's only one quick shot of her. So I don't know that we can judge the Anvar situation based on this trailer.

[DaveSumm]

5 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

She says "wherever I goddamn like." Wasn't hard for me to hear her.

To be clear, I have no trouble understanding her. It was just a bizarre delivery and everyone I watched with laughed out loud as a result.

@karaddin This could turn in to a whole tangent about accents, but I don’t particularly get on with Naomi’s performance for the same reason; she adopts what I call ‘Hollywood English’, which is essentially middle class English but with extra consonants. I’ve never met anyone who speaks like that, and it draws me out of the show. It seems to be the go to accent when an English person is on an American show (Hunter in Agents of SHIELD had the same thing). Of course, I am English so I’d be more sensitive to it I guess. I can’t quite pinpoint why, but I feel that both these performances suffer because of it. On the other hand, just thinking out loud, I think Jared Harris’s belter accent is awesome ... so I’m not sure what the rule is.

But generally I understand where HoI i coming from with the whole ensemble, it’s pretty much entirely the plot that brings me back to The Expanse. I don’t especially care what happens to particular characters on a personal level (exemplified by the general ambivalence to Anvar leaving; it’s a shame that the show has to suffer due to his behaviour but what grand arc got spoiled here exactly?)

[Heartofice]

Didn't know what to make of the Belter accent at first, mainly because it all seemed a bit unimaginative, like a bad mix of Jamaican and Dutch. But actually now I kind of love it, some of the actors pulled it off really well and added their own emphasis to it where it felt very natural and not layered on. 

[karaddin]

9 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

 

@karaddin This could turn in to a whole tangent about accents, but I don’t particularly get on with Naomi’s performance for the same reason; she adopts what I call ‘Hollywood English’, which is essentially middle class English but with extra consonants. I’ve never met anyone who speaks like that, and it draws me out of the show. It seems to be the go to accent when an English person is on an American show (Hunter in Agents of SHIELD had the same thing). Of course, I am English so I’d be more sensitive to it I guess. I can’t quite pinpoint why, but I feel that both these performances suffer because of it. On the other hand, just thinking out loud, I think Jared Harris’s belter accent is awesome ... so I’m not sure what the rule is.

See I take no issue with this at all, as I said it's all personal taste as to whether accents work for you or not and I'm not going to judge someone for having different tastes to be. Contrary to HoI's prophecy of doom I'm not questioning your character, I just thought the specific criticism of her "grasp" of English was unfair. I get no indication that you're not discussing this in good faith though, hence just saying tastes differ.

My judgement of HoI not acting in good faith is due to a very very long and well established pattern of what he does and does not like, and the reasons he typically digs up for liking and not liking them, and his general posting style. But that's not what this thread is about and the mods normally don't like it when a thread derails into discussing the people in it so I'll just leave it at that.

Corvinus - fair point on Clarissa and not making too big a deal of who gets focus in the trailer. I'll still be very surprised if he's retained on the show as a main character though due to the other reasons.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

My judgement of HoI not acting in good faith is due to a very very long and well established pattern of what he does and does not like, and the reasons he typically digs up for liking and not liking them, and his general posting style. But that's not what this thread is about and the mods normally don't like it when a thread derails into discussing the people in it so I'll just leave it at that.

The problem here is that has no basis in reality whatsoever. I've posted a lot about things I like and don't like and none of it has any connection to what you are sneakily insinuating. 

If I feel like someone is bad at acting and then more than likely it's because I genuinely believe they are bad at acting. Seeing as I'm not alone in that opinion it probably means there is something genuine about my viewpoint. You might also note my disdain for James 'White Male' Holden in the show who I believe to be less interesting than a block of wood... due to his wooden blockness.

If you don't want to derail threads by talking about individuals then maybe stop continuously doing it.. Feel free to disagree, but stop using your magic 'telepathy' to know what people are 'reaaaaally' thinking underneath their actual words.

 

[Week]

Welp, a hit dog will holler.

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

This could turn in to a whole tangent about accents, but I don’t particularly get on with Naomi’s performance for the same reason; she adopts what I call ‘Hollywood English’, which is essentially middle class English but with extra consonants. I’ve never met anyone who speaks like that, and it draws me out of the show. It seems to be the go to accent when an English person is on an American show (Hunter in Agents of SHIELD had the same thing). Of course, I am English so I’d be more sensitive to it I guess. I can’t quite pinpoint why, but I feel that both these performances suffer because of it. On the other hand, just thinking out loud, I think Jared Harris’s belter accent is awesome ... so I’m not sure what the rule is.

That's also weird. In Dominique Tipper's interviews with her normal talking voice she pretty much has the same accent as Naomi (she sometimes puts on an East London accent, which is the one she grew up with, but clearly didn't take), and it's not exactly uncommon in the UK, speaking as someone from the South East who's spent a lot of time working in London.

Quote

If you don't want to derail threads by talking about individuals then maybe stop continuously doing it.. Feel free to disagree, but stop using your magic 'telepathy' to know what people are 'reaaaaally' thinking underneath their actual words.

I mean, your statement indicated that you thought she was a thick foreigner who couldn't understand English despite living in primarily English-speaking countries for 41 years of her life.

If that isn't what you meant, you should perhaps consider choosing your words with a bit more care.

[Heartofice]

Well those are words you are putting into my mouth. If anything I’m giving her an out here. If the reason she has no idea where to put emphasis into a sentence or when to even breathe when speaking is that English isn’t her first language then she at least has some sort of excuse. 
 

The only other explanation is that she has managed to get this far without even learning the absolute basics of acting.

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Maybe she is much better in Iranian, it is a possibility, she seemed to do better in House of Sand and Fog when she didn't attempt to be speaking English. I don't think that is a great excuse though, thinking about all the fantastic foreign actors and actresses around who don't appear to have the same problems. 

The swearing I agree is a real problem, mainly because her voice is so raspy and sandpaperish that I worry that when she shouts something might break, but also that the words do not come naturally to her. Nothing she says or does feels particularly natural. 

And you know, call me a bigot or whatever Karaddin is insinuating, but one of the things I notice about great actresses is their, and call me crazy.. the ability to act, and communicate emotion. She can't do it. It might be her accent, it might be her lack of skill, it might be her potential smoking habit or it might be plastic surgery in her face. 
 

Well as they say, beauty appreciating someone's acting truly is in the eye of the beholder, because I totally don't see what you see, or see what you don't see. To say that she cannot emote is beyond me. And I find some of your criticism highly superficial, like being bothered by the sound of her voice. It reminds me of my dad never liking Philip Seymor Hoffman because of the sound of his normal voice, or not liking Kylo Ren because of Adam Driver's face.

 

[Caligula_K3]

@HeartoficeOr that she makes acting choices you don't agree with. Like, she's nowhere near my favourite actress in the series and I don't feel that she pulls off the big scenes, but there's a lot of possibilities between "she doesn't know the basics of acting" and "she must not be able to speak English properly." Because most of her scenes are fine enough by my standards.

For what it's worth, Avasarala has always worked better for me in the show than the books, where the one note joke of "she's an old lady... but she swears constantly!" got old very fast.

[Jace, Extat]

So this is one of those moments where I point out that personal preferences, and the lack of attunement to them on behalf of a production, are not related to the quality of said production. 

You can like or dislike whatever you want for whyever you want. But being contrarian does not imbue your opinion with rightness, it's just annoying.

 

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

So this is one of those moments where I point out that personal preferences, and the lack of attunement to them on behalf of a production, are not related to the quality of said production. 

You can like or dislike whatever you want for whyever you want. But being contrarian does not imbue your opinion with rightness, it's just annoying.

 

Hmm, it’s not about personal ‘preference’, that would be me saying ‘ I don’t like the way she is acting’

its that I suggest there are basic objective measures when it comes to acting and that I don’t think she is hitting them.
 

We can all agree or disagree on that and that’s why it’s a discussion. Disagreeing with my opinion doesn’t imbue anyone with ‘rightness either’

[karaddin]

5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

If you don't want to derail threads by talking about individuals then maybe stop continuously doing it.. Feel free to disagree, but stop using your magic 'telepathy' to know what people are 'reaaaaally' thinking underneath their actual words.

If you think it takes magic telepathy to pay attention to what someone says over an extended period of time or recognise dog whistles and talking bullshit maybe you're not quite as good at measuring objective reality as you think.

You can dislike someone's acting style all you like, but when you claim an actress who is quite well received across a range of projects and performances and speaks perfectly acceptable English lacks even the basic core competencies of acting and doesn't understand the language you're going a lot further than simply expressing an opinion. If you want people to think you're simply expressing a legitimate opinion then maybe try sticking to actually expressing opinions rather than sweeping claims about a person of color that bear a remarkable resemblance to the things a racist person would say about them.

[Poobah]

I do tend to agree with some of the criticisms of other characters/actors, particularly that somewhere between the actor, direction, and writing Holden has ended up feeling very flat and uninteresting which seems really hard to achieve given that the character's the captain of a group of mercenaries flying around on a powerful warship, with a heart of gold and all. That said Avasarala has consistently been my high point of the entire show for me: I look forward to her scenes and she tends to steal them, and I enjoy every aspect of the performance her actor brings to the role.

[john]

If you’ve spent time around people who are fluent in English but it’s not their first language, well, this is kind of how they behave - almost exactly the same as native English speakers but slightly off in some ways. In that sense it’s a very good performance of a character whose first language presumably isn’t English either (not sure if they’re supposed to have a universal earth language in the world of the expanse).

[Week]

/woofing continues/

*Glares and picks up the rolled up news paper that @karaddin put down*

If you want to act white you have to sound white. Sorry, I meant "right" and mistyped. Twice. Honest.