Can anyone PROVE that Varys is a eunuch?

[The Sleeper]

Given that he is a fictional character and thus lacks corporeality, not unless Martin describes him naked.

It wouldn't be out of character. After all eunuchs tend to be dismissed and would face fewer restrictions, say in accompanying unchaperoned ladies, nor would they be viewed as sexual competition or objects of desire. There would be quite a few benefits for a man of his position and disposition. And if he is a she, Varys would avoid many of the preconceptions against women and wouldn't have to fend off sexual advances and avoid the complications thereof. The idea has merit and doesn't require particular set up. 

[Rufus Snow]

38 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If Varys didn't had prominent Adam's apple, people at royal court would have noticed it long ago.

Would they, though? It's not something I ever look at (although there are not many people of indeterminate gender in my life, but even then, it's not what I look at...) and of the people that I have seen with particularly prominent Adam's apples still stick out amongst men, it's a bias, but it's not universal.

And to be pertinent, no-one in text has remarked on Varys' large AA, to my recollection....

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Indirect stuff but: why then Varys story about being cut, how could he transorm into a man credibly as Rugen and Illyrio treats him like a bro.

Well, a 'eunuch' without a story of being cut would hardly be convincing whether fake or real, and Varys is an experienced mummer who 'knows all the tricks'. There are plenty of women in real life who have successfully pulled off a male performance, so Rugen needn't stretch our credulity. Illyrio may or may not be 'in' on the deception...

 

[867-5309]

Evidence?  No.  He has soft, round features.  But so does Samwell. 

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

There are examples of women throughout history who have disguised themselves as men to get ahead in life. I think it perfectly possible that Varys is a woman, although my primary reason for disbelieving it is his story of how he was castrated, which I find to be believable. 

Or to throw some tinfoil out there - Illyrio + Varys = Aegon

[Lollygag]

I've not seen any hints in the slightest that Varys is a woman.

Short of what can be observed when nude, the most distinguishing feature of a eunuch cut before puberty is the voice. Since we’ve been told quite a number of times about Varys’ voice dropping or changing from normal, I can only take this as the author telling the reader—very clearly—to doubt Varys’ story here and likely in general. To what ends though, I don’t have any idea.

 

Here’s an article about the Castrati which underscores the voice as a stand-out feature of the eunuch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato

 

A question I do have about Varys is the glaring contradiction which stems from the story of his castration. If he is so anti-magic as to target Stannis' association with the red priests with such hatred, why in the world would he in turn support the super magical Targs with their dragons, pyromancers, pyromancer Hands of the King, woo-woo Summerhall stuff...? I can't make any sense of that. 

ACOK Tyrion X

"Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead."

 

[Sigella]

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

Well, a 'eunuch' without a story of being cut would hardly be convincing whether fake or real, and Varys is an experienced mummer who 'knows all the tricks'. There are plenty of women in real life who have successfully pulled off a male performance, so Rugen needn't stretch our credulity. Illyrio may or may not be 'in' on the deception...

 

Sure, but Varys' story about being cut is rather good, therefore I doubt GRRM would turn it into wind by making Varys a woman.

And to be fair Arya knows better tricks than Varys.

[Kandrax]

Varys beign woman, reminded me of theory that he is Joff's mother.

[Rufus Snow]

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

A question I do have about Varys is the glaring contradiction which stems from the story of his castration. If he is so anti-magic as to target Stannis' association with the red priests with such hatred, why in the world would he in turn support the super magical Targs with their dragons, pyromancers, pyromancer Hands of the King, woo-woo Summerhall stuff...? I can't make any sense of that. 

That's a good point.

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

And to be fair Arya knows better tricks than Varys.

And maybe the first and most successful trick that Arya used, could also have been used by vArys, perhaps, in the early years? I often wondered whether their stories of surviving as 'orphaned' urchins on the streets of a hostile city might have more than a few parallels.... it's not much of a hint, but it could be a hint nonetheless.

[Sigella]

55 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

And maybe the first and most successful trick that Arya used, could also have been used by vArys, perhaps, in the early years? I often wondered whether their stories of surviving as 'orphaned' urchins on the streets of a hostile city might have more than a few parallels.... it's not much of a hint, but it could be a hint nonetheless.

That could be foreshadowing of Arya becoming a mistress of Whispers rather than Varys turning out to be a girl, though  

[Rufus Snow]

5 minutes ago, Sigella said:

That could be foreshadowing of Arya becoming a mistress of Whispers rather than Varys turning out to be a girl, though  

Quite possibly. Or they may both be destined to die in Dorne like Arys Oakheart.... but these things usually only come into focus with hindsight. It wouldn't be George if there was only one possible interpretation - that's why we're all here obsessing over a piece of literature in the first place

[Lady Isis]

3 hours ago, Sigella said:

Sure, but Varys' story about being cut is rather good, therefore I doubt GRRM would turn it into wind by making Varys a woman.

THIS! I have re-read the books a few times and I just cant see how Varys could be female. The idea that he is still a intact male sure I can see that angle but not being female. And besides... as far as I am aware where there at lease 2 female "Mistress of Wispers" in Targaryen Dynasty?

[rotting sea cow]

16 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Ok, this may well be total tinpot crack-foil, but it begins with a humourous comment from another poster in another thread. It left me with the question: is there anything in the text other than Varys' own words that can be used to either prove or disprove his status as a eunuch? More specifically, is it possible he is actually a woman and lying about his backstory?

I don't recall, and haven't yet found, anything regarding this topic which doesn't end up back with 'because Varys said so.' What I'm looking for is any trace of independent corroboration that can entirely dispel this tinpot crack-foil. As far as I'm aware, no-one has ever seen Varys disrobed, or bedded him. There's no maester who claims to have treated him.

To be clear, I'm looking for evidence in the texts. Is there something I've overlooked, or is this still a twist the George could possibly pull on us?

Well, there is that moment when Varys told his story to Tyrion, using a voice he has used only in three occasions.. Yes, we are supposed to believe that. If not, you are not following the books using instructions. Being an eunuch is integral to the character. 

Regardless of this. Do we know if his name is Varys? Does it matter?

The Varys we know - the plum, feminine, soft spider - is one of his mummer faces, possibly the one that suits him better, but he can do others if he wish.  He is a very talented mummer and that is the important thing.

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Ok, this may well be total tinpot crack-foil, but it begins with a humourous comment from another poster in another thread. It left me with the question: is there anything in the text other than Varys' own words that can be used to either prove or disprove his status as a eunuch? More specifically, is it possible he is actually a woman and lying about his backstory?

I don't recall, and haven't yet found, anything regarding this topic which doesn't end up back with 'because Varys said so.' What I'm looking for is any trace of independent corroboration that can entirely dispel this tinpot crack-foil. As far as I'm aware, no-one has ever seen Varys disrobed, or bedded him. There's no maester who claims to have treated him.

To be clear, I'm looking for evidence in the texts. Is there something I've overlooked, or is this still a twist the George could possibly pull on us?

Can you prove with evidence in the texts that he isn't?

[Rufus Snow]

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Can you prove with evidence in the texts that he isn't?

No, it can't be proved either way, so far as I can see. Hence my call on the wisdom of the crowd, to find out if there is anything in the text we can point to for sure, one way or the other, that someone else has seen and I have so far overlooked. I'd be happy with conclusive evidence either way - it's going to take a couple of weeks to do another re-read, as I've never looked at this angle before, so I thought maybe someone has a definitive answer on tap

All I've seen so far is opinions, however well argued, and Varys' own testimony which I'm not convinced can be relied upon.

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 minute ago, Rufus Snow said:

No, it can't be proved either way, so far as I can see. Hence my call on the wisdom of the crowd, to find out if there is anything in the text we can point to for sure, one way or the other, that someone else has seen and I have so far overlooked. I'd be happy with conclusive evidence either way - it's going to take a couple of weeks to do another re-read, as I've never looked at this angle before, so I thought maybe someone has a definitive answer on tap

All I've seen so far is opinions, however well argued, and Varys' own testimony which I'm not convinced can be relied upon.

As of now, there is no reason to think he lied about getting his junk removed. Also, King Aerys was the kind of asshole to demand a peek before the hire 

[BlackLightning]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 3:13 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Such a twist is possible, I suppose... that said, I don't think it will happen. I've seen people proposing Varys is a woman before, and also that he is an intact man. It's all possible because as you say no one has seen him naked or witnessed when he was cut. Still... I find it unlikely.

 

Varys being female is an interesting twist. But one that may have a problem standing on its own given Illyrio's story...

Also I've also heard that Varys is not even completely human. Like he's a merman working for the Deep Ones. Which would tie in well with both the Euron Greyjoy thing and the things that Patchface saw under the sea?

22 hours ago, Megorova said:

If Varys didn't had prominent Adam's apple, people at royal court would have noticed it long ago.

Varys was castrated when he was a boy. So he didn't go through puberty and thus...he would not have an Adam's Apple.

19 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

Evidence?  No.  He has soft, round features.  But so does Samwell. 

Samwell is borderline obese.

In either case, as previously stated, Varys is a gifted actor. He has many guises...the Spider/the Master of Whisperers is just one of them. But no...as it stands, the only one who could prove Varys is a eunuch (or not) is Varys.

On second thought, maybe Quaithe, Marwyn or a red priest could unveil it but...prove? I don't know. I doubt it.

9 hours ago, Lady Isis said:

THIS! I have re-read the books a few times and I just cant see how Varys could be female. The idea that he is still a intact male sure I can see that angle but not being female. And besides... as far as I am aware where there at lease 2 female "Mistress of Wispers" in Targaryen Dynasty?

Yes.

If there is any political position that is commonly acceptable for a woman to assume in her own right in Westeros, then it is the position of the Master of Whisperers.

[Damon_Tor]

It's would be a terrible lie because it would be so easy to discover. As soon as he needed medical care for just about anything his cover would be blown. It would be fine for a short-term identity, but as a long con it doesn't really make much sense.

[Aetta]

On 8/29/2018 at 3:14 PM, EloImFizzy said:

Its been over 20 years since the first book came out, and over 7 years since the last. I feel like if there was any evidence in the texts it would've been found by now. Really there are two things you have to think about:

1. Out of all the things Varys could lie about, why would he lie about being a eunuch? 
2. What would the twist of Varys not being a eunuch add to the story?

In fact, I think it may be the opposite. The twist lie in that he is a eunuch and not just, well, dead.

I am curious to know: Why only burn his reproductive organs? In the case of our beloved Melisandre, she seems to prefer sacrificing whole bodies. And why not a foot, a hand, or a tongue?

Following the fAegon Blackfyre postulate that Varys is an Aegon VI relative and has king's (Blackfyre) blood, was burning his man bits a measure to prevent him from reproducing a Blackfyre...or Targaryen (or Brightflame)? And why let him live to tell?  Was the person who did this to him related to him (hence did not want to kin slay) or otherwise prevented from just burning the whole damn body?

Or, was this prophecy? That Varys's path as a eunuch would trigger a series of events, position him highly at Westerosi court, and to be a figure in the story we see playing out?  In the histories of our real world, eunuchs were exclusively sought after to serve at court as they could not threaten the dynasty.

All just more conjecture, but clearly there's something to the castration.

 

 

 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Varys was castrated when he was a boy. So he didn't go through puberty and thus...he would not have an Adam's Apple.

All people have Adam's apple, even females. Males just have bigger. The growth of AA is caused by testosterone. In a male's body it is produced not only in testicles, but also in adrenal glands. When Varys was disguised as someone else, he had lower voice, more manly, than he usually does. And no one suspected, that those people, whom he impersonated, were not males, or eunuchs. So either he was faking deeper voice really well, or he does have male-like AA. Also even castrated males still will have larger hands and feet, than woman's. So it's very unlikely, that Varys is a woman.

51 minutes ago, Aetta said:

I am curious to know: Why only burn his reproductive organs? In the case of our beloved Melisandre, she seems to prefer sacrificing whole bodies. And why not a foot, a hand, or a tongue?

By burning Varys' reproductive organs, that warlock has sacrificed blood and seed, future of Varys' bloodline, all his possible children, grandchildren and further descendants, that will never be born. It's a sacrifice of the potential, destruction of the future, that could have been, but now will never be. Melisandre also did something among those lines - that shadow baby, that was Stannis' child, was result of sacrificing Stannis' seed. After that Stannis felt very ill, nearly died. That shadow-baby took away part of his father's life force. Pobably in case with Varys, that warlock has sacrificed life force of Varys' unborn descendants.

[Aetta]

17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

By burning Varys' reproductive organs, that warlock has sacrificed blood and seed, future of Varys' bloodline, all his possible children, grandchildren and further descendants, that will never be born. It's a sacrifice of the potential, destruction of the future, that could have been, but now will never be. Melisandre also did something among those lines - that shadow baby, that was Stannis' child, was result of sacrificing Stannis' seed. After that Stannis felt very ill, nearly died. That shadow-baby took away part of his father's life force. Pobably in case with Varys, that warlock has sacrificed life force of Varys' unborn descendants.

Agreed, but do you believe it's just to stop him as a random dude from having kids, or is there something "special" about the idea of (specifically) Varys procreating?