Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Count Balerion]

On 9/4/2021 at 12:01 PM, SeanF said:

Porne was certainly a low point in the show, but not the low point, IMHO.  That dubious honour goes to Tyrion's "First they came for the slave drivers and I did nothing......" speech.

will no one weep for kraznys?

[Count Balerion]

anyone seen this. demanding dragon chap linked to it in video. watching looper/stammer video. "probably catherine kennedy took one look at the last season and was like [raspberry, thumbs down], and fired them." "keep those guys away from the new project. so far away. legally they cannot go there." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5L9L9ap3Yk

[Count Balerion]

oh yeah, here's dragon video.

 

[Le Cygne]

HBO's "Game of Thrones" TV series will principally be remembered for two things: a disappointing ending, and a legion of fans who think they could have done it better...

Catelyn Stark would come back from the dead

Following her death at the Red Wedding in Season 3, it was simply assumed that one of the ensuing seasons would close on the image of the Stark matriarch opening her undead eyes; this was for good reason: it happened in the books... Ultimately, the "Game of Thrones" show omitted the entire thing.

Cersei Lannister would be killed by Jaime

Then there was the show-specific "green eyes" theory, which was derived from Melisandre's prophecy that Arya Stark would kill people with green, brown, and blue eyes... No such thing actually happened, of course. Cersei and Jaime were crushed to death by falling rocks, in what remains one of the series finale's most controversial choices.

Jon Snow (or maybe Daenerys Targaryen) was the Prince Who Was Promised

After Stannis' death, Melisandre switched her pick to the resurrected Jon Snow, though Season 7 still went out of its way to suggest that the Prince — which could also be a Princess — actually turned out to be Daenerys... Hilariously, not only is the true identity of the Prince Who Was Promised never properly revealed, the entire concept was unceremoniously dropped in Season 8.

Jon Snow would kill the Night King

If there was one way Jon could have proven he was the hero that the prophecy foretold, it would have been to kill the Night King, thus ending the threat of the White Walkers once and for all... It was so logical, in fact, that the showrunners decided not to write it. Snow actor Kit Harrington, for his part, told Maisie Williams that he had been informed during Season 3 that he was going to do it...

So instead, it became Arya who leapt out of the darkness and took down the Night King with a Valyrian steel dagger. The choice had no narrative or thematic resonance whatsoever, and seemingly let Jon with nothing to do during the battle but scream uselessly at a dragon — but hey, at least it wasn't obvious.

https://www.looper.com/602613/the-wildest-game-of-thrones-theories-that-didnt-pan-out/

[Lady Fevre Dream]

This is what HBO tweeted out today.  When the suggestion of streaming all of Game of Thrones came across my timeline, my main thought was:  What ever for?  Why would I do that now?  I can't imagine why?  

 

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

This is what HBO tweeted out today.  When the suggestion of streaming all of Game of Thrones came across my timeline, my main thought was:  What ever for?  Why would I do that now?  I can't imagine why?  

 

Even the scenes and episodes that I liked, from earlier seasons, have no rewatch value to me.  What's the point to the stories of Jon, Daenerys, or Jaime, when they end so wretchedly?  What's the point of watching Sansa turning into Cersei 2.0?  Who cares about Bran becoming king?  What interest is there in seeing Tyrion become a moron?

[BlackLightning]

On 9/26/2021 at 11:34 AM, Le Cygne said:

HBO's "Game of Thrones" TV series will principally be remembered for two things: a disappointing ending, and a legion of fans who think they could have done it better...

Catelyn Stark would come back from the dead

Following her death at the Red Wedding in Season 3, it was simply assumed that one of the ensuing seasons would close on the image of the Stark matriarch opening her undead eyes; this was for good reason: it happened in the books... Ultimately, the "Game of Thrones" show omitted the entire thing.

Cersei Lannister would be killed by Jaime

Then there was the show-specific "green eyes" theory, which was derived from Melisandre's prophecy that Arya Stark would kill people with green, brown, and blue eyes... No such thing actually happened, of course. Cersei and Jaime were crushed to death by falling rocks, in what remains one of the series finale's most controversial choices.

Jon Snow (or maybe Daenerys Targaryen) was the Prince Who Was Promised

After Stannis' death, Melisandre switched her pick to the resurrected Jon Snow, though Season 7 still went out of its way to suggest that the Prince — which could also be a Princess — actually turned out to be Daenerys... Hilariously, not only is the true identity of the Prince Who Was Promised never properly revealed, the entire concept was unceremoniously dropped in Season 8.

Jon Snow would kill the Night King

If there was one way Jon could have proven he was the hero that the prophecy foretold, it would have been to kill the Night King, thus ending the threat of the White Walkers once and for all... It was so logical, in fact, that the showrunners decided not to write it. Snow actor Kit Harrington, for his part, told Maisie Williams that he had been informed during Season 3 that he was going to do it...

So instead, it became Arya who leapt out of the darkness and took down the Night King with a Valyrian steel dagger. The choice had no narrative or thematic resonance whatsoever, and seemingly let Jon with nothing to do during the battle but scream uselessly at a dragon — but hey, at least it wasn't obvious.

https://www.looper.com/602613/the-wildest-game-of-thrones-theories-that-didnt-pan-out/

How embarrassing.

Now the bits about:

• Varys being a merman
• the White Walkers coming back as a surprise in the final episode
• Bran being the Night King (or the reason for the Night King's existence)
• and the end of all magic...

Ideas like those were the only way that the show could have been salvaged in the last three episodes.

On 9/26/2021 at 6:11 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

This is what HBO tweeted out today.  When the suggestion of streaming all of Game of Thrones came across my timeline, my main thought was:  What ever for?  Why would I do that now?  I can't imagine why?  

 

Exactly.

@SeanF to this day, I can only watch scenes. Not entire episodes.

Not even the first episode has rewatch value because things addressed in the very first episode aren't even concluded in the last episode. Miserable.

 

[Corvinus85]

I even have trouble listening to the soundtrack nowadays. There are a few songs I greatly enjoy, but I no longer listen to the whole thing. The main theme, always playing resoundingly over the map of the world, now reminds me how often that map was ignored by the writers.

[Count Balerion]

yeah no interest in rewatching, i fear.

[WhatAnArtist!]

It was very interesting skimming through this (enormous) thread, as someone that stopped watching the series at the end of season 5 and have had no interest in watching any more of the show since then. I knew it ended badly, but I didn't realise just how atrociously bad it really was. But people that think the show only became bad in the last two seasons are wrong - the problems started long before then, arguably in season 4, and became deeply ingrained by season 5. The disasters of the last few seasons didn't happen in a vacuum, they were the inevitable result of D&D's many writing faults that stretch back for years. A character killed off too early here, a character excessively whitewashed there. It all added up. I mean, being frank, as a "book purist", the only seasons I can still fully enjoy are 1 and 2, and even 2 has some silliness in it (Arya and Tywin scenes, Talisa scenes, Jon and Ygritte cringe). 

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

It was very interesting skimming through this (enormous) thread, as someone that stopped watching the series at the end of season 5 and have had no interest in watching any more of the show since then. I knew it ended badly, but I didn't realise just how atrociously bad it really was. But people that think the show only became bad in the last two seasons are wrong - the problems started long before then, arguably in season 4, and became deeply ingrained by season 5. The disasters of the last few seasons didn't happen in a vacuum, they were the inevitable result of D&D's many writing faults that stretch back for years. A character killed off too early here, a character excessively whitewashed there. It all added up. I mean, being frank, as a "book purist", the only seasons I can still fully enjoy are 1 and 2, and even 2 has some silliness in it (Arya and Tywin scenes, Talisa scenes, Jon and Ygritte cringe). 

I've no real quibbles with Season 1.

Seasons 2 to 4.  There were things that jarred and irritated, but by and large, what I liked far outweighed what I disliked.  So, I tended to defend the two D's against criticism, even though I can see, with hindsight, that the criticism was justified, and that it revealed flaws that would overwhelm the show in time.

To my mind, where it began to go off the rails was with Dany's plot in Qarth.  This was virtually all original material, it looked flashy, and it was poor.  But worse than that, it showed in microcosm just how bad things would get once the two D's departed from the source material.  What we got were:-

1. Plot holes.  The Spice King & co. invite Dany to the gates of Qarth, but then tell them to drop dead in the desert. Dany's Dothraki are killed off in one episode, but regenerate in the next.  Xaro, the King of Qarth, has no guards on his palace and no money in his safe.

2. Abrupt, unexplained, shifts in character.  The relationship between Dany and Doreah is almost romantic.  Yet, quite abruptly, Doreah turns traitor for .....reasons.

3.  Negotiation being replaced by two people shouting at each other (in the books, Dany tries to win over the rulers of Qarth;  here, she and the Spice Kings shout at each other).

4. Nods to the books that end up going nowhere - in this case, Qaithe.

5. Ditching really interesting stuff in favour of the mundane - The House of the Undying.

[WhatAnArtist!]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

I've no real quibbles with Season 1.

Seasons 2 to 4.  There were things that jarred and irritated, but by and large, what I liked far outweighed what I disliked.  So, I tended to defend the two D's against criticism, even though I can see, with hindsight, that the criticism was justified, and that it revealed flaws that would overwhelm the show in time.

To my mind, where it began to go off the rails was with Dany's plot in Qarth.  This was virtually all original material, it looked flashy, and it was poor.  But worse than that, it showed in microcosm just how bad things would get once the two D's departed from the source material.  What we got were:-

1. Plot holes.  The Spice King & co. invite Dany to the gates of Qarth, but then tell them to drop dead in the desert. Dany's Dothraki are killed off in one episode, but regenerate in the next.  Xaro, the King of Qarth, has no guards on his palace and no money in his safe.

2. Abrupt, unexplained, shifts in character.  The relationship between Dany and Doreah is almost romantic.  Yet, quite abruptly, Doreah turns traitor for .....reasons.

3.  Negotiation being replaced by two people shouting at each other (in the books, Dany tries to win over the rulers of Qarth;  here, she and the Spice Kings shout at each other).

4. Nods to the books that end up going nowhere - in this case, Qaithe.

5. Ditching really interesting stuff in favour of the mundane - The House of the Undying.

I agree that Dany's season 2 storyline is pretty abysmally bad, and sticks out like a sore thumb on rewatches, although I'm willing to give D&D a little bit of slack here. Her storyline was fairly uninteresting in the book, and it was also very short - only five chapters, compared to her ten in AGoT, and the conventions of TV usually necessitate giving main characters a consistent amount of screen-time between seasons. The stolen dragons subplot, while terribly executed and pointless from a narrative perspective, at least added some small semblance of "drama" to her storyline. At least the type of conventional drama that TV viewers expected. Her book storyline - such as it is - consists of a measly two chapters in Qarth before the House of the Undying, and they're pretty redundant - just her endlessly complaining to Jorah and Xaro about how no one is helping her.

I would honestly have had no problem with her having far less screentime compared to other seasons, but D&D have shown that they're not the type of writers to want to do that with characters (except Bran). They'd rather invent dumb and redundant storylines than have a character just not show up much in a season (also see: Theon in season 3). And as well all know, D&D are abysmally awful writers when they have to create something from scratch.

The same thing also happened with Tywin and Arya that season - rather than properly introducing a character that would go on to be extremely important quite soon - Roose Bolton - the writers instead decided to have completely made-up conversations between two characters we already know well, and in the process completely neuter one of the most cold and ruthless characters in the series because they thought it would be cute and funny if he acted like a cool grandpa for some reason. Reducing Roose's relevance to a short and disposable scene where he tells Robb about Ramsay offhand was ridiculous, and showed that even as early as season 2, D&D were prioritising nonsense fanservice over establishing important new characters and storylines.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

I agree that Dany's season 2 storyline is pretty abysmally bad, and sticks out like a sore thumb on rewatches, although I'm willing to give D&D a little bit of slack here. Her storyline was fairly uninteresting in the book, and it was also very short - only five chapters, compared to her ten in AGoT, and the conventions of TV usually necessitate giving main characters a consistent amount of screen-time between seasons. The stolen dragons subplot, while terribly executed and pointless from a narrative perspective, at least added some small semblance of "drama" to her storyline. At least the type of conventional drama that TV viewers expected. Her book storyline - such as it is - consists of a measly two chapters in Qarth before the House of the Undying, and they're pretty redundant - just her endlessly complaining to Jorah and Xaro about how no one is helping her.

I would honestly have had no problem with her having far less screentime compared to other seasons, but D&D have shown that they're not the type of writers to want to do that with characters (except Bran). They'd rather invent dumb and redundant storylines than have a character just not show up much in a season (also see: Theon in season 3). And as well all know, D&D are abysmally awful writers when they have to create something from scratch.

The same thing also happened with Tywin and Arya that season - rather than properly introducing a character that would go on to be extremely important quite soon - Roose Bolton - the writers instead decided to have completely made-up conversations between two characters we already know well, and in the process completely neuter one of the most cold and ruthless characters in the series because they thought it would be cute and funny if he acted like a cool grandpa for some reason. Reducing Roose's relevance to a short and disposable scene where he tells Robb about Ramsay offhand was ridiculous, and showed that even as early as season 2, D&D were prioritising nonsense fanservice over establishing important new characters and storylines.

I’d have dealt with Qarth in perhaps three episodes, following the books, and then gone straight into Astapor, finishing with her turning the Unsullied.  There’s enough left in the Eastern storyline to carry the next two seasons.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

So, with the release of a House of The Dragon teaser, it made me wonder if we have any other type of GRRM news.  I went to the Not A Blog and found this latest post, only photographic.  

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

Any ideas what it could be.  
 

[Ran]

3 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

So, with the release of a House of The Dragon teaser, it made me wonder if we have any other type of GRRM news.  I went to the Not A Blog and found this latest post, only photographic.  

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/

Any ideas what it could be.  
 

@zionius suggested something I had started to think of but didn't have the time to look into -- that it's a count of how many projects George is connected with are in some stage of development at HBO right now. By his count, we know of seven currently in some stage of development, so an eighth would be news. It need not be GoT related, could be something he's attached to through Startling Inc. which will have very little involvement from him beyond having gotten it setup at HBO and earning a producer credit thereby.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

30 minutes ago, Ran said:

@zionius suggested something I had started to think of but didn't have the time to look into -- that it's a count of how many projects George is connected with are in some stage of development at HBO right now. By his count, we know of seven currently in some stage of development, so an eighth would be news. It need not be GoT related, could be something he's attached to through Startling Inc. which will have very little involvement from him beyond having gotten it setup at HBO and earning a producer credit thereby.

Thanks for the answer.  I was wondering on the finger count, should I include the thumb? and, of course, wondering what it could be about.  I had noticed some of the Wild Card posts that GRRM had made, but there are many more of those books, so.......I kind of ruled that out.  

I hadn't thought of adding up all current projects, there could be something to that.  Whatever it is, hopefully he feels good about it, and we'll find out eventually.  

[zionius]

He had 8 projects with HBO: Who Fears Death, Roadmarks, HOTD, 9 voyages, 10k ships, D&E, ASOIAF Anime, Flea Bottom. (He had more with Peacock, Netflex, AMC, etc. So it's only a HBO project count, as the tag suggests. It follows the same way of him counting HBO spinoff shows in that famous blog)

But recently "Flea Bottom" is dead, so the 8th one is a little tricky. It could still be Flea Bottom, it could be Warner's Ice Dragon since Warner owns HBO, it could also be Theodore Sturgeon's More than Human, which is listed here: https://www.startlinginc.com/ (You'll note all other Startling's HBO projects are GRRM-related projects).

[Angel Eyes]

On 10/4/2021 at 12:27 PM, WhatAnArtist! said:

The same thing also happened with Tywin and Arya that season - rather than properly introducing a character that would go on to be extremely important quite soon - Roose Bolton - the writers instead decided to have completely made-up conversations between two characters we already know well, and in the process completely neuter one of the most cold and ruthless characters in the series because they thought it would be cute and funny if he acted like a cool grandpa for some reason. Reducing Roose's relevance to a short and disposable scene where he tells Robb about Ramsay offhand was ridiculous, and showed that even as early as season 2, D&D were prioritising nonsense fanservice over establishing important new characters and storylines.

And then the Tywin and Arya scenes were promptly forgotten in Season 7 when Arya said she'd never serve the Lannisters.

[BlackLightning]

On 10/4/2021 at 11:27 AM, WhatAnArtist! said:

I agree that Dany's season 2 storyline is pretty abysmally bad, and sticks out like a sore thumb on rewatches, although I'm willing to give D&D a little bit of slack here. Her storyline was fairly uninteresting in the book, and it was also very short - only five chapters, compared to her ten in AGoT, and the conventions of TV usually necessitate giving main characters a consistent amount of screen-time between seasons. The stolen dragons subplot, while terribly executed and pointless from a narrative perspective, at least added some small semblance of "drama" to her storyline. At least the type of conventional drama that TV viewers expected. Her book storyline - such as it is - consists of a measly two chapters in Qarth before the House of the Undying, and they're pretty redundant - just her endlessly complaining to Jorah and Xaro about how no one is helping her.

I would honestly have had no problem with her having far less screentime compared to other seasons, but D&D have shown that they're not the type of writers to want to do that with characters (except Bran). They'd rather invent dumb and redundant storylines than have a character just not show up much in a season (also see: Theon in season 3). And as well all know, D&D are abysmally awful writers when they have to create something from scratch.

I hear you on that.

But they dropped the ball on the most interesting parts of Dany's season 2 storyline: which is the House of the Undying and Dany being the Beggar Queen.

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I hear you on that.

But they dropped the ball on the most interesting parts of Dany's season 2 storyline: which is the House of the Undying and Dany being the Beggar Queen.

Well she didn't last very long as the Beggar Queen didn't she? Only 5 chapters in ACOK.