UK Politics : Groundhog May

[Chaircat Meow]

48 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I mean, Soubry's parting words were something along the line. The conservative party is lost, it's Bluekip now. So going with her argument, I don't think your distinction between party and membership will hold through the next election cycle.



I genuinely don’t know how the next election will play out. You don’t either. It is very unpredictable.

I was merely making the point that there are still many decent, sensible and rational people in the Tory party. You’re right that the radicalisation of the membership makes a Brexiteer something of a shoe-in as the next leader, especially if Brexit does not actually happen. I would encourage pro-Europeans to join the Tory party to counteract this.  Maybe fear of Corbyn and the far-left will serve as a kind of sanity inducing factor, or maybe not.

As regards Soubry I would vote for an Independent Group candidate (assuming they do create a party) if they were up against an ERG Tory or a Labour MP. I was overjoyed when Chuka led the spilt and when the Amigos joined in. So I am pro-Soubry. I have to say though, I did not think much of her attack on May.

May presided over historically record immigration and was a remainer. To say she has some sort of problem with immigration means everyone who is against the unusually high level of immigration since 1997 is some kind of racist. This is not a conservative position to take. Soubry’s other views, on the importance of EU membership, are conservative though.

You asked a few days ago about my claim Cameron was betrayed by the ERG. I stand by this. What happened to him was like Eddard Stark being outplayed by Littlefinger. The Brexiteers lied about Turkey joining the EU and hundreds of thousands of Turks heading to England’s fair shores. They knew Cameron would not say that the UK would in extremis veto Turkish membership (in the unlikely event France and Germany agreed to it) because he feared it would damage security cooperation with Erdogan. They took advantage of his unwillingness to put British citizens in danger of terror attacks to spread their lies.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

May presided over historically record immigration and was a remainer. To say she has some sort of problem with immigration means everyone who is against the unusually high level of immigration since 1997 is some kind of racist.

Imma go out on a limb here and suggest that the vast majority of people who have some sort of problem with immigration are racist. Lots of them, my mum included, have fallen for the lie that austerity and the UK's general economic crapfest is all the fault of immigrants, and nothing at all to do with the bazillions we gave to the bankers.

And Theresa May is most definitely a racist. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. She is personally responsible for the 'hostile environment'. Remember those 'immigrants go home' advertising vans? Windrush is entirely her doing, and continues to be one of the biggest scandals of the age. Her government has done virtually nothing to help these people, a year after it all blew up.

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

9 hours ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

May presided over historically record immigration and was a remainer. To say she has some sort of problem with immigration means everyone who is against the unusually high level of immigration since 1997 is some kind of racist. This is not a conservative position to take. Soubry’s other views, on the importance of EU membership, are conservative though.

That is a (conveniently) narrow view. Hostile enviroment and Windrush are two of May's major achievements, eventhough Rudd fell on the sword for May, thoose were her scandals to begin with.

9 hours ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

You asked a few days ago about my claim Cameron was betrayed by the ERG. I stand by this. What happened to him was like Eddard Stark being outplayed by Littlefinger. The Brexiteers lied about Turkey joining the EU and hundreds of thousands of Turks heading to England’s fair shores. They knew Cameron would not say that the UK would in extremis veto Turkish membership (in the unlikely event France and Germany agreed to it) because he feared it would damage security cooperation with Erdogan. They took advantage of his unwillingness to put British citizens in danger of terror attacks to spread their lies.

He really would not have needed to go as far.

A simple Turksih ascension looks extremely unlikely, as it would recquire consent from all the member states [including the UK]. And there are serius reservations about Turkey joining in several member states, particularly in Germany.

I honestly find those Cameron defenses somewhat confusing and misplaced (are you by any chance the ghost writer of his auto-biography?). I doubt a raison d'etat played a huge role in his calculus. David Cameron was about David Cameron. And he simply did not want to create further divisions within his party. He would have liked to win the referendum, he was just not willing to have his skin in the game. And he knew exactly with what kind of people he was dealing. All the comparissions to Eddard Stark fall short, as in Lord had honour and personal integrity if you will. Qualities totally absent in Davey boy. At best you can compare him to Tytos Lannister, who was too weak willed and has let his party run wild. But alas, Theresa is no Tywin Lannister, but has been as inept as her predecessor.

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

That's the all brown women lookalike Nadine Dorries? The one who said, no deal doesn't mean a crash, because of the transition period?

  Hide contents

No deal, means no transition. But don't tell her.

That's the miracle of the trash bin aka the Tory party, no matter who you pick from there, you will inevitably end up with a piece of garbage. But srsly, why not go full Mogg then? Yes, I know, he doesn't want the job.

Or Peter Bone

[A wilding]

I thought I would make one final post about the Shamima Begum business, as Mrs W has pointed out interesting parallels between her and William Joyce, aka "Lord Haw Haw".

Joyce was a minor extreme right wing UK politician who left the UK for Germany just before the start of World War II. In Germany he joined a broadcasting station, and spent most of the war broadcasting Nazi propaganda to the UK, becoming a well known vilified hate figure as a result. At the end of the war he was captured in Germany by British troops.

There was apparently no question of stripping his UK nationality from him. Instead he was brought back to the UK against his will and charged with treason. At this point an inconvenient fact emerged - it turned out that he had never been British, but was actually originally a US citizen! Despite this, he was found guilty (and executed), possibly because of political pressure, in what is widely considered to be a miscarriage of justice.

 

[Jace, Extat]

11 minutes ago, A wilding said:

 a miscarriage of justice.

 

You spelled 'triumph' wrong.

[SeanF]

30 minutes ago, A wilding said:

I thought I would make one final post about the Shamima Begum business, as Mrs W has pointed out interesting parallels between her and William Joyce, aka "Lord Haw Haw".

Joyce was a minor extreme right wing UK politician who left the UK for Germany just before the start of World War II. In Germany he joined a broadcasting station, and spent most of the war broadcasting Nazi propaganda to the UK, becoming a well known vilified hate figure as a result. At the end of the war he was captured in Germany by British troops.

There was apparently no question of stripping his UK nationality from him. Instead he was brought back to the UK against his will and charged with treason. At this point an inconvenient fact emerged - it turned out that he had never been British, but was actually originally a US citizen! Despite this, he was found guilty (and executed), possibly because of political pressure, in what is widely considered to be a miscarriage of justice.

 

Today's traitors should count their blessings

[mormont]

24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Today's traitors should count their blessings

Have I stumbled into the Daily Mail comment section?

13 hours ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

I was merely making the point that there are still many decent, sensible and rational people in the Tory party.

I think that at this point, 'many' is not the word. Terms like 'a handful' are more accurate. Significantly fewer than there were, certainly, at all levels.

[Chaircat Meow]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Or Peter Bone

My dream team would be Andrew Brigden, Prime Minister, Mark Francois, Foreign Secretary, Peter Bone, Chancellor (with Mrs Bone as Chief Sec to the Treasury, although I hear they're getting divorced and she's not an mp) and Christopher Chope, Home Secretary.

[Nevarfeather]

On Theresa May delaying the meaningful vote  (again)
It clarifies that we won't now be leaving the EU on March 29th with a deal
We are either now in no-deal or delay land. 
Leaving with a deal now on March 29th is impossible, 17 days is not time to get all the necessary legislation through. So it's either no-deal or delay now

 

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, Nevarfeather said:

On Theresa May delaying the meaningful vote  (again)
It clarifies that we won't now be leaving the EU on March 29th with a deal
We are either now in no-deal or delay land. 
Leaving with a deal now on March 29th is impossible, 17 days is not time to get all the necessary legislation through. So it's either no-deal or delay now

 

I thought this has been pretty obvious for sometime. May said we will definitely be leaving on March 29th, therefore we definitely will not be leaving on March 29th

[Maltaran]

I’m guessing this means the new Cooper-Boles-Letwin amendment is going to have a better chance of passing than the last one

[A Horse Named Stranger]

4 hours ago, Maltaran said:

I’m guessing this means the new Cooper-Boles-Letwin amendment is going to have a better chance of passing than the last one

Just that May has successfully taken several weeks off the clock again. I am curious whether MPs now have the courage to back Cooper's and Grieve's Amendments, but it feels awfully late for that.

Proceural note/question. Those things will also have to pass the lords doesn't it? Tic-toc goes the clock, and all the Moggs been lying, tic-toc goes the clock, and cliff edge waits for Britain.

[Spockydog]

Corbyn puts the cat amongst the pigeons.

[Chaircat Meow]

51 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Corbyn puts the cat amongst the pigeons.

Yea, only after Chuka Ummuna shoved a rocket up his useless backside and lit the fuse.

Still, this is progress. 

[Jen'ari]

1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

Corbyn puts the cat amongst the pigeons.

He had to really, as everything he’s tried up to this point regarding Brexit has backfired for him.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

Yea, only after Chuka Ummuna shoved a rocket up his useless backside and lit the fuse.

Still, this is progress. 

It certainly is. Though Chuka's probably choking on his prosecco tonight.

Having a good old lol at all the Brextremists totally losing their shit on twitter right now. They're all so concerned with respecting the will of the British people, yet, for some reason (#NowWeKnowThereAreNoSuchThingsAsUnicorns), seem utterly terrified of a second vote. Boo fucking hoo.

 

 

[Chaircat Meow]

 

17 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

It certainly is. Having a good old lol at all the Brextremists totally losing their shit on twitter right now. They're all so concerned with respecting the will of the British people, yet, for some reason (#NowWeKnowThereAreNoSuchThingsAsUnicorns), seem utterly terrified of a second vote. Boo fucking hoo.

 

 

Today is a good day.

The terror of the second vote tells you everything you need to know about the confidence they repose in their own project. 

It should also be mentioned that Keir Starmer has clearly done a bang-up job pushing the 2nd referendum within Labour ranks. He's beaten Seamus Milne, Len McCluskey and other unsavoury characters. I think a lot of credit probably goes to Tom Watson too for reading Corbyn the riot act in the wake of the defections. McDonnell may also have been a voice for pragmatism.

However, the threat of the 2nd ref will shrink the ERG rebellion, which is what May wants and will make it easier for her to get the deal through on 12 March … Extensions and 2nd refs play into her preferred strategy of getting the deal through with a united Tory party. 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

However, the threat of the 2nd ref will shrink the ERG rebellion, which is what May wants and will make it easier for her to get the deal through on 12 March … Extensions and 2nd refs play into her preferred strategy of getting the deal through with a united Tory party. 

This is also what Corbyn wants. Not the united Tory Party, but certainly Brexit happening under the Tory watch and the resulting shitstorm he can firmly pin on the Tories to secure a Labour victory in 2022 (or whenever). 

If the situation pans out that they do go for a second referendum, then it'll be interesting to see what the hell happens. Will Corbyn go off on holiday again or will he go all in and actually fight properly for Remain? If I was him I'd go for something snappy like "Remain and Reform", point out the problems in the EU and how Britain can tackle them from the inside etc. That's the course that Remain probably should have followed back in 2016.

[Chaircat Meow]

19 minutes ago, Werthead said:

This is also what Corbyn wants. Not the united Tory Party, but certainly Brexit happening under the Tory watch and the resulting shitstorm he can firmly pin on the Tories to secure a Labour victory in 2022 (or whenever). 

If the situation pans out that they do go for a second referendum, then it'll be interesting to see what the hell happens. Will Corbyn go off on holiday again or will he go all in and actually fight properly for Remain? If I was him I'd go for something snappy like "Remain and Reform", point out the problems in the EU and how Britain can tackle them from the inside etc. That's the course that Remain probably should have followed back in 2016.

True.

What would he want to reform that it makes sense to ask for (i.e. not state aid rules)?

The main reform people want is freedom of movement. And it is just not viable, IMO, to campaign for remain without backing freedom of movement all the way.