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Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

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The gauntlet won the fight, too, not the male gender of the snapper.  Carol didn't lose only to see a man get it done.  The gauntlet did the deed.  She was just as capable, but it wasn't her time to sacrifice and die , so she wasn't the 1 in 14 million futures that we needed and stark was.   So none of that sequence stung me.

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9 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

We don’t know that he returned it, maybe it’s just his weapon of choice now. :)

Being a 100 year old man, it beats the walker, that's for sure.

And I just realized that Cap also got his shield fixed. Being the same timeline, he would not have stolen the shield from a younger Cap, and in 1945, the shield went into the ice with him. Maybe he went to Wakanda and asked them nicely to fix it.

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That mitt was destined to catch his daughter's heart, Dave.  Without it she becomes a cold hearted killer.   

 

Endgame's final battle may be shorter, but it looked and felt like total YES, like the mature film-making masterpiece for which Infinity War's battle was the learner.   I won't be purchasing a copy of IW, but will grab one of Endgame.

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The battle of Wakanda had battle progression, forces being kept in reserve, tactics, all that. It also feels longer because in reality we had two simultaneous battles (Wakanda and Titan) and the movie flipped between them. This battle was just one uninterrupted massive brawl.

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Saw it again today and have a few more thoughts.

The part where Hulk held up the rubble to protect the others was definitely a nod to the original Secret Wars. In that, the villains (I believe specifically Molecule Man) dropped an entire mountain range on the heroes and the Hulk held it up, saving the huddled good guys. The interesting thing is that during the miniseries, Banner was in the control of the Hulk just as he was in the movie. However, Banner!Hulk was not as strong a regular Hulk and was starting to weaken until Reed Richards began berating him, telling him he wasn't as smart as regular Banner or strong as regular Hulk. This naturally enraged Banner and the adrenaline made him stronger which gave Richards the time to MacGyver a way to free them.  Reed of course apologized and Banner said he knew why he did it.

Also, this time a noticed more when Tony snapped the villains away. Thanos turns around to watch his forces die and he sees the Maw reaching towards him until he dusts away. Also further back you can see Proxima Midnight cradling a wounded or dead (courtesy of Okoye) Corvus Glaive before they too turn to dust. When Thanos sits down to die, I think he's mourning more than just his foiled plans. I think he's mourning his "Children". He was an omicidal maniac but he loved Gamora and I think he also loved his other children in his own way. As they say, alas poor villain. 

And I noted that the audience cheered three times in both my viewings. They cheered when Cap wielded Mjolnir. They cheered when Falcon, Black Panther, and the rest of the cavalry arrived. And they cheered when the women of the MCU banded together to help Captain Marvel. Take that as you will. 

 

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On 4/24/2019 at 11:55 AM, ants said:

The whole crowd cheered when Cap used Mjolnir. :)

the whole crowd laughed when I yelled "holy shit!!" when he caught Mjolnir.

I give it a 10/10 - every emotion, every story line, character development....it had it all.  My only question is how did the "normal" people wield infinity stones when we know their power is too great for mortals to wield?  Hawkeye specifically has one in his hand, how did he not get nuked?

It may have been answered and I missed it, but that really is my only nitpick/complaint for the whole movie.

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4 minutes ago, Greywolf2375 said:

the whole crowd laughed when I yelled "holy shit!!" when he caught Mjolnir.

I give it a 10/10 - every emotion, every story line, character development....it had it all.  My only question is how did the "normal" people wield infinity stones when we know their power is too great for mortals to wield?  Hawkeye specifically has one in his hand, how did he not get nuked?

It may have been answered and I missed it, but that really is my only nitpick/complaint for the whole movie.

There's a question about which stones really destroy people if they're too weak. Maybe all, maybe just the power stone, and the others react differently, like the space stone teleporting you somewhere. But I think in Hawkeye's case, he paid the price for it, thus he could touch it safely.

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5 minutes ago, Greywolf2375 said:

the whole crowd laughed when I yelled "holy shit!!" when he caught Mjolnir.

I give it a 10/10 - every emotion, every story line, character development....it had it all.  My only question is how did the "normal" people wield infinity stones when we know their power is too great for mortals to wield?  Hawkeye specifically has one in his hand, how did he not get nuked?

It may have been answered and I missed it, but that really is my only nitpick/complaint for the whole movie.

IIRC, it's only the Power Stone that causes problems for mortals when being held - the others you have to be actually trying to use them in order to be affected.

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3 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

There's a question about which stones really destroy people if they're too weak. Maybe all, maybe just the power stone, and the others react differently, like the space stone teleporting you somewhere. But I think in Hawkeye's case, he paid the price for it, thus he could touch it safely.

 

3 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

IIRC, it's only the Power Stone that causes problems for mortals when being held - the others you have to be actually trying to use them in order to be affected.

Gotcha - ok, thanks. Makes sense.

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44 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Being a 100 year old man, it beats the walker, that's for sure.

And I just realized that Cap also got his shield fixed. Being the same timeline, he would not have stolen the shield from a younger Cap, and in 1945, the shield went into the ice with him. Maybe he went to Wakanda and asked them nicely to fix it.

I was looking out for it after someone mentioned it way back, but it is a different shield. I’m fairly sure he didn’t take the broken shield back with him, and the new one has a different design, its star is made up of five silver outlines rather than solid white. Best guess is Wakanda, they have the technology and the vibranium to spare. But it’s still a little tricky, at what point could he have approached T’Challa and said ‘hey, I’m Old Cap, make me a new shield and don’t tell anyone yea?’ I’m gonna fudge it as: there’s a gap between the battle and the funeral, and then one between that and the platform scene, time for all the Wakandans to go home and Old Cap to approach them and ask for a new one. Not the most elegant but it fits.

11 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

IIRC, it's only the Power Stone that causes problems for mortals when being held - the others you have to be actually trying to use them in order to be affected.

There’s a line in GotG where the Xandarians ask ‘how was he able to hold an infinity stone?’ as if that would happen with any of them, but I guess they were wrong and it’s just the stone in that film (I forget which one). But Barton is veeeery blasè about carrying that gauntlet around, holding it stones inward against his chest, as well as obviously holding the soul stone.

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On 4/27/2019 at 10:20 AM, The Great Unwashed said:

I just don't see how there is a scene missing, especially if you've seen Captain Marvel.

CM meets the Avengers in CM's mid-credits scene. Pepper Potts knows Tony went into space with Maw. Rocket knows that the other GotG went to Titan to find Thanos. It's reasonable for the team to infer Ebony Maw was also heading to meet Thanos because Hulk knows Maw had the Time Stone. So then it's reasonable for them to assume that Tony met up with the GotG. A homing beacon on the ship is definitely not out of the question of MCU tech, and CM is the only one who can make the trip into space. 

Just seems like there are other things that happened that are less easily explained away in what was arguably a brilliant, if flawed, movie.

I'd have thought her introduction to the team is something rather important and stupid to just randomly skip over. No her randomly appearing in front of them doesn't count as an introduction. I mean heck even that doesn't make sense. They just randomly have Fury's pager...............because reasons. Like I said, the begin of this film felt rushed to me. It honestly felt like they wanted to chop off Thanos head off at the ten minute mark and they were going to get there, lol

The more I think back on this movie, I'm leaning towards it just being "ok" in my book. The narrative just didn't seem as tight to me the way Infinity War did. I'm also not a big fan of Back to the Future II and that's what the middle of this film reminded me of for obvious reasons. I mean maybe many of you guys love nostalgia, but I much prefer going to new places and exploring new things. That's just me though.

Even though I got misty eyed when all of the dead characters showed up and Cap said "Avengers Assemble", the fact that it was against GotG vol 1 Thanos and not the horrible jerk who destroyed half the universe made the final battle seem less personal. I wish they found a way to only have one Thanos in the film and the climax being all of the characters getting payback on him. I'd also much prefer a GotG reunion, along with one for Cap, Bucky and Falcon, over the random "girl power" scene, that just took me right out of the film.

The fact that this movie ends with a funeral as well, doesn't help things in my book, I honestly wanted a happy ending, given all the crap these characters went through. I'd have personally preferred a party of some sorts and a symbolic handing of torch to the next generation of Avengers. Best thing I can say about the ending is, it got me really excited for GotG vol 3 and I can't wait to see how James Gunn handles Thor. Seeming him and Drax together is going to be a lot of fun.

Edited by sifth

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Phew, right, I finished reading the thread, took me longer than watching the movie did.  So to show my appreciation for all the MCU callbacks in Endgame i’m going to callback all the bits in the thread I appreciated most.

First, the callbacks themselves.  I agree with karradin the “Hail Hydra” moment was the best one, especially as you expect a repeat of the elevator beatdown.  Cap lifting the Hammer and Thor saying “I knew it” (per Red Snow and Wert) was a close second.  Also enjoyed “activate instant kill” (referenced by Corvinus I think).

Bastard of Bolton got it absolutely right in that the movie, particularly the end battle perfectly captured the craziness of an epic comic book event. I don’t even really like event comics but that Iron Gauntlet relay with the different characters encountering each other mid battle really spoke to my inner eleven year old comic fan.  Also, minor point but BoB is also right that Danver’s haircut is possibly just her hair from the comics (and from cosplay).  She may well be gay but I wouldn’t see that as evidence of it.

Kalbear is right on the interpretation of how the time travel works, imo.  The film is clear that you can’t change things and affect your future but it makes sense that if you don’t try to change anything then yeah, you can live out your life and come back as an old man on a bench.

Moving on to my own thoughts, I can’t believe it took me until I was actually watching it to realise what this movie would be.  The drama movie, the one with poignant scenes that gives these highly talented actors something to get their teeth into.  Chris Hemsworth particularly was great, can’t believe he was nearly knocked out of the running for the character by his brother (wtf?).  Would have liked to see more from Evans, RDJ and Johansson, although they each got pivotal scenes, there wasn’t as strong an arc as Thor got (he also got his own little story in Infinity War, what’s up with that)?

So, the events of the movie, I mean, I pretty much knew the ending already for Stark and Rogers (and called it in previous threads, not that I was the only one to do so).  Black Widow caught me off guard but it really seemed just like a death they threw in there so you’d have one nobody saw coming.  Even at that moment it seemed obvious it would be Barton who lived, you need that family reunion scene.

I actually think it’s a bit of poor storytelling that Stark’s death was so obvious.  I appreciate the need to set things up so there can be the satisfying realisation that things were planned all along, and that works well for Cap.  But the whole thing about Strange’s Endgame plan just meant that I knew a year ago that Stark was going to have to sacrifice himself at the end.  They didn’t have to do it that way.

Only real nitpick I have is that it’s kind of ridiculous that Jane Foster was poked twice with a strange device by a Racoon and an extremely famous man while remaining oblivious.  Could have had a speaking part too, Marvel continuing to do Natalie Portman down.

Otherwise, great film, enjoyed it, although I have to say, as others have, that I can’t see much rewatch value in it.

edit - oh yeah, I meant to say that I agree they’re probably going to get the Soul Stone back and resurrect Gamora and Romanoff.  Possibly Vision as well (Bettany’s been in a lot of the films but mostly as just a voice, so not sure whether he’d want to leave). Anyway, Adam Warlock needs his soul stone.

Edited by john

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31 minutes ago, john said:

First, the callbacks themselves.  I agree with karradin the “Hail Hydra” moment was the best one, especially as you expect a repeat of the elevator beatdown.  Cap lifting the Hammer and Thor saying “I knew it” (per Red Snow and Wert) was a close second.  Also enjoyed “activate instant kill” (referenced by Corvinus I think).

Thanks, but that was still Wert. 

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3 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Thanks, but that was still Wert. 

Ah, it’s a long thread! I checked back and turned out the post I liked of yours was the one where you mentioned everybody snapping back and falling out of the sky etc, so yeah I immediately had that thought too when Peter came through the portal from Titan.

Talk about Captain Marvel being overpowered btw, but Doctor Strange is also ridiculously overpowered.  Not only is he pretty strong by himself but he can also apparently summon dozens of sorcerers, who even if they only use their portal powers are still pretty useful.

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Another thing I have to say is that I really like Nebula's character arc since Guardians 1. From hateful Child of Thanos to reluctant Guardian to very willing ally to the Avengers. Her gently caring for Tony Stark and holding hands with Rocket after the snap was so sweet. I love the character and Karen Gillan's portrayal of her.

Just now, john said:

Talk about Captain Marvel being overpowered btw, but Doctor Strange is also ridiculously overpowered.  Not only is he pretty strong by himself but he can also apparently summon dozens of sorcerers, who even if they only use their portal powers are still pretty useful.

I'm glad you brought this up because it reminded me of a few things.

1. In IW, Strange was concerned about getting back home while they were in the Maw's ship. He wanted to know if Tony could fly it. Yet in Endgame Strange was able teleport himself, Spidey, and the Guardians home.  How did he do that and how did he contact Wong to begin with when they were all the way on Titan? I guess I would hand wave that he somehow contacted Wong through the mystical arts who then summoned the other sorcerers and they used a mass spell or some magic item from the Santorum. 

2. How did the Ravagers get involved? I didn't know until I went home on Friday that it was the Ravagers in those ships coming through the sorcerer portals. It had to be Quill who contacted them but how did they get to Titan so fast? I can't hand wave this one away as much. 

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strange fastforwarded through part 4 during part 3 and saw how he will do it in order that he might do it.

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10 hours ago, Trebla said:

As opposed to the 3 white guys who stand together against Thanos which is like totally normal and unquestioned because that's real life. All heroes need to be big strong white guys because that's SCIENCE!

Thor did not submit to the Sakovia Accords, so undocumented alien, right?

7 hours ago, polishgenius said:

The problem with the women assemble scene wasn't that it was politically motivated- that is a good thing so long as we need this kind of thing and anyone annoyed by the very premise can frankly piss right off.

But it was clumsy. IW did it much better with Widow, SW and Okoye, for example. I get the argument for pointing itself out also being a somewhat necessary and positive thing too, but... I'm sure it could have been done more elegantly.

But simultaneously it really was a very small part of a very big battle so...

I've heard some people say how it was sort of a comic panel thing.  But it seemed clumsy as hell.  If they had done about 12 quick cuts of all of them kicking ass it could have been a lot better flow.  Kind of took me out of the moment.

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48 minutes ago, mcbigski said:

Thor did not submit to the Sakovia Accords, so undocumented alien, right?

I've heard some people say how it was sort of a comic panel thing.  But it seemed clumsy as hell.  If they had done about 12 quick cuts of all of them kicking ass it could have been a lot better flow.  Kind of took me out of the moment.

I think it took most people out of it only because it was so obvious what they were doing. Somehow during this battle royale all of the kick ass women meet up at the same spot? It made you stop and say yep they are setting up a poster scene.

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