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People are hating this episode for the wrong reasons

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Posted (edited)

Long time lurker, first time poster. I actually created an account to post this.

This episode has been getting a lot of hate. Some criticisms were certainly justified, especially about the bad writing in places. But the writing has been bad for several seasons now, so what sets S08E04 apart?

Here's my opinion: I think people are not angry about the bad writing, they're angry about the story not going in the direction they wanted:

  • Some people were hoping WW to be some kind of climate change allegory, they aren't happy about them not being the last big bad. Instead it turns out the game of thrones is the final stake.
  • Some people wanted R+L=J to have some significance in either the fight against the WW, or the fight for the IT, or both: instead, it may very well be that the only purpose of this reveal is to drive a wedge between Jon and Dany.
  • Some people wanted Jon and Dany to end up together, they're not happy about the conflict that is shaping up between them.
  • Some people hated Dany's "mad queen" theory, now it looks like we're headed in that direction.
  • etc, etc, etc

As we approach the end, many predictions/theories will be proven wrong and many hopes will be crushed. In this regard, Ep4 was pivotal (confirmation that the WW are done, mad queen Dany). I think people are disguising their anger at their own wishes/predictions not coming true as criticism of the writing. Yes, the writing is bad. But was this episode really worse than the past two or three seasons?

Edited by GandalfOhWaitWrongSeries

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I think for me what disappointed me (and in fairness it's been that way since S7 started really) is that you can clearly see the creators are just cutting content left, right and center....killing off characters or just making up bullshit to close off loose threads (new prince in Dorne?).

It's just feeling like all they have left is flashy CGI fights and special effects for show, rather than actual writing that makes the show feel as intense as it was in S1-4.

I don't really have any predictions i want to see come true, so I don't really have an issue with where the plot goes. But I do think they've seriously messed up what started as an excellent piece of TV way back in S1.

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A lot can happen in two episodes. 

I’m irritated with the writing this season for how they’ve ruined a few characters (Tyrion), but I’m happy to let the last hours play out and see what they come up with. 

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I can't agree with the OP. I can't speak for everyone, but most people I have spoken with hate the episode because D&D are butchering characters making them do illogical things as well as switching long and meaningful story arcs around to get a shock out of the audience or just a good shot. Much of that is also completely not needed and could be avoided with a bit more dialogue.

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:45 AM, GandalfOhWaitWrongSeries said:

Long time lurker, first time poster. I actually created an account to post this.

This episode has been getting a lot of hate. Some criticisms were certainly justified, especially about the bad writing in places. But the writing has been bad for several seasons now, so what sets S08E04 apart?

Here's my opinion: I think people are not angry about the bad writing, they're angry about the story not going in the direction they wanted:

  • Some people were hoping WW to be some kind of climate change allegory, they aren't happy about them not being the last big bad. Instead it turns out the game of thrones is the final stake.
  • Some people wanted R+L=J to have some significance in either the fight against the WW, or the fight for the IT, or both: instead, it may very well be that the only purpose of this reveal is to drive a wedge between Jon and Dany.
  • Some people wanted Jon and Dany to end up together, they're not happy about the conflict that is shaping up between them.
  • Some people hated Dany's "mad queen" theory, now it looks like we're headed in that direction.
  • etc, etc, etc

As we approach the end, many predictions/theories will be proven wrong and many hopes will be crushed. In this regard, Ep4 was pivotal (confirmation that the WW are done, mad queen Dany). I think people are disguising their anger at their own wishes/predictions not coming true as criticism of the writing. Yes, the writing is bad. But was this episode really worse than the past two or three seasons?

No, it's not what has happened, it's that it has consistently been done poorly. Things are never explained.

A good symbol of the way things have gone the last two seasons is the beginning of epi 3, the battle episode. In a war movie, you always get that scene where two commanders are looking at a map, talking about what's going on, what the plan is, etc. But here, is there even a plan?

ZIP. NADA.

We open on a castle with thousands of soldiers around it. Nobody even tells us why those soldiers are out there. We already know it's something about "night king," but is he approaching Winterfell? Do we know? Do we know what direction his army is in? What have the outposts and patrols reported? Do we even have outposts and patrols?

ZIP. NADA.

The Dothraki go charging out into the darkness. What are they charging after? Has somebody reported the Night King army out there? Do they know where it is? Outposts? Patrols? Bueller? Did somebody order them to charge? WHO? Who is in command here, anyway?

ZIP. NADA.

And this kind of crucial stuff just gets left out routinely and regularly. Could George R.R. Martin have carried us smoothly from where we left off to Mad Queen Daenerys? No doubt he could have (although it would've been a fairly long journey). Have D&D done that? No they have not. Have they given us convincing reasons why J&D don't just solve everything in one of the numerous ways they could easily solve it by agreement? No they have not. Did they solve the NK with a sudden, unforeshadowed, unforeseen plot device--and I'm not talking about Arya getting the kill, that was foreshadowed fine, I'm talking about the whole army shattering and the insta-removal of the entire threat--that took 2 seconds to execute? YES THEY DID.

 

 

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On 5/9/2019 at 2:45 PM, GandalfOhWaitWrongSeries said:

Long time lurker, first time poster. I actually created an account to post this.

This episode has been getting a lot of hate. Some criticisms were certainly justified, especially about the bad writing in places. But the writing has been bad for several seasons now, so what sets S08E04 apart?

Here's my opinion: I think people are not angry about the bad writing, they're angry about the story not going in the direction they wanted:

  • Some people were hoping WW to be some kind of climate change allegory, they aren't happy about them not being the last big bad. Instead it turns out the game of thrones is the final stake. I never thought it was that much of a climate change allegory, but it has been built up since the very first scene of the show, so some better understanding of the WW, their motives, their 'designs', was really necessary, especially in light of the decision to have Arya kill the NK solo only because it was surprising.  I felt these decisions undercut years and years of story and buildup.
  •  
  • Some people wanted R+L=J to have some significance in either the fight against the WW, or the fight for the IT, or both: instead, it may very well be that the only purpose of this reveal is to drive a wedge between Jon and Dany. Again, the mystery of Jon's mother has existed from the show's beginning, if the fact that he is the rightful heir to the throne isn't important in the story, either because of the prophecies, that were also abandoned by Arya being the killer of the NK, or in terms of united Westeros somehow, it plays as an unimportant detail that we never even needed.
  •  
  • Some people wanted Jon and Dany to end up together, they're not happy about the conflict that is shaping up between them. Maybe but the conflict has been very subdued between the two of them and they were always unlikely to get a happy ending together
  •  
  • Some people hated Dany's "mad queen" theory, now it looks like we're headed in that direction.
  • etc, etc, etc  My problem with Dany going mad is the show is doing it within 2-3 episodes, and there hasn't been sufficient groundwork laid or actions of hers taken there is no reason why Varys suddenly for no real reason decides she needs to be deposed, it's very poor execution of an especially tragic storyline.

As we approach the end, many predictions/theories will be proven wrong and many hopes will be crushed. In this regard, Ep4 was pivotal (confirmation that the WW are done, mad queen Dany). I think people are disguising their anger at their own wishes/predictions not coming true as criticism of the writing. Yes, the writing is bad. But was this episode really worse than the past two or three seasons?  Some of that is undoubtedly true, when anything ends, the final die is cast, the choices are made and all theories and possibilities are foreclosed, and for a show that has been built on theories, a lot of people are going to be disappointed that their theories didn't happen, but I still think that this season has been especially clumsy and poorly constructed, especially given it's the final season, the big showdowns, and ending.  It seems more like they crashed this all together in 6 months rather than having an extra year to do it.

 

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I do agree that much of the backlash to this particular episode is being driven by people annoyed at the direction the show is taking Daenerys rather than how ineptly it is doing it. 

That being said, as bad as the show has been for the past few seasons, I don't think they've ever stupidly fucked over so many main characters in such a short span of time. I can buy that this episode is uniquely bad in that regard. 

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:45 AM, GandalfOhWaitWrongSeries said:

But was this episode really worse than the past two or three seasons?

Yes. Far worse, as I’ve enjoyed the entire series up until this episode. 

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29 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

I do agree that much of the backlash to this particular episode is being driven by people annoyed at the direction the show is taking Daenerys rather than how ineptly it is doing it. <snip>

Yes, BUT ... the annoyance is because there has always been little-to-zero support in either the books or show for "mad queen" and that's why a lot of us nerds who have been talking about it a lot have staked out a pretty strong "not a mad queen" stance. There has always been a portion of the commenters here who have staked out the "mad queen" stance, and while I absolutely DO NOT want to tar the whole group, a sizable chunk of those folks have been kids or those who haven't read the books. 

IOW, with respect to those few commenters who have made out reasoned arguments for "mad Daenerys," I think the bulk of what we have had to go on as evidence from canon has been counter to that idea. So yeah, I hate the idea of the "mad Daenerys" internet punks [not the smart ones, no not you B), the punks] having turned out to be "right" simply because those show-running dirtbags have decided to go that way to justify a few more cheap explosions and battle scenes, when the canon really points in another direction.

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40 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

I do agree that much of the backlash to this particular episode is being driven by people annoyed at the direction the show is taking Daenerys rather than how ineptly it is doing it. 

That being said, as bad as the show has been for the past few seasons, I don't think they've ever stupidly fucked over so many main characters in such a short span of time. I can buy that this episode is uniquely bad in that regard. 

It's a combination.  Taking a hugely popular character, who has been portrayed as flawed but heroic for 8 years, and in the space of 2 episode set up a tragic/negative ending was always going to be unpopular.  A longer, better, more delicate build up and there would be less backlash.

When this comes on top of gutting the WW story, the importance of Jon Snow's heritage as well as many minutes of the dumbest battles you will ever see...it becomes a tipping point.

I do think if she goes mad in the show she will go mad in the books, the show would never have taken this road if they didn't get it from GRRM.

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36 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's a combination.  Taking a hugely popular character, who has been portrayed as flawed but heroic for 8 years, and in the space of 2 episode set up a tragic/negative ending was always going to be unpopular.  A longer, better, more delicate build up and there would be less backlash.

When this comes on top of gutting the WW story, the importance of Jon Snow's heritage as well as many minutes of the dumbest battles you will ever see...it becomes a tipping point.

I do think if she goes mad in the show she will go mad in the books, the show would never have taken this road if they didn't get it from GRRM.

The thing I'm annoyed about is that the people who say Westeros is fine being a patriarchal society because it's the middle ages are also the same people who say Dany is ridiculous for wanting to kill innocent people to take the iron throne. What do they think happens in war? Only armies fight each other? This is why I find the "Mad Queen" direction so frustrating because her "being mad" is actually completely logical realistically. They can miss me with Varys, he let Ned Stark die and let the Lannisters take over so he REALLY has no say in this. 

 

On two other notes, KL got our lovely "But my people are peaceful" Missandei to shout "Dracarys" like Cersei didn't have this coming. Also, Dany's not dumb, she knows Sansa is conniving. I would get out of the North as fast as I can too with the amount of ungratefulness and nonexistent hospitality that Sansa has shown her. Sansa and Arya are the Lannisters 2.0 now. 

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I'm pretty sure I'm angry for the right fucking reasons.  After everything, what really pisses me off is that we don't get the Sansa and Arya reaction to Jon' parentage.  THAT HAPPENS OFF-SCREEN!!!  

The first thought that went through my head when they revealed that Jon was the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna was, "No shit."

But my second thought was "I wonder how Arya is going to take this."

So D&D think it's more important to show Bronn in a four-way talking about Ed Sheeran getting his face melted off, but Arya and Sansa's thoughts on their "brother" being their cousin AND a Targaryen!!  

And D&D's response is "Move along...nothing to see here."

Fuck these guys. They're lazy hacks.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2019 at 12:45 PM, GandalfOhWaitWrongSeries said:

Long time lurker, first time poster. I actually created an account to post this.

This episode has been getting a lot of hate. Some criticisms were certainly justified, especially about the bad writing in places. But the writing has been bad for several seasons now, so what sets S08E04 apart?

Here's my opinion: I think people are not angry about the bad writing,

Yes, the writing is bad. But was this episode really worse than the past two or three seasons?

I think that many people just expected better results because the writers had an extra year to work on this season with only six episodes to focus upon.  Yet this season is about the same quality as the last one (which was fairly poor), and they have reverted to the same idiotic devices. 

In this episode, Euron made his third, devastating, surprise attack at no cost to himself.  Apparently, he has satellite intel which locates his enemies anywhere on the map, warp drive to get there instantly, cloaking devices and radar so that the Iron Fleet can avoid detection from and target aerial opponents, and ballistic missiles so powerful they can shred other ships like paper!  Why did we ever upgrade to cannons when ballistae are just so bad ass!    

He should not have been able to surprise them this time, not when they know the Iron Fleet is a serious threat to any movement in the waters near King's Landing.  Dragonstone is very near King's Landing and they should have anticipated that the island would have been captured or guarded.  Did they even bother to leave a garrison there before going North?!?  

Nevermind, Euron was made into a diabolus ex machina because the writers had absolutely no idea how to even the odds against Dany's forces except for this, and making Tyrion into a military imbecile.  

The final scene in front of King's Landing is similar to the Dragon pit all over again with so much stupidity about it I can scarcely stand it.

1. Team Dany really can't get to that position in front of King's Landing without sailing past Euron somehow.  Do they even have ships left after that attack? Did they use their own cloaking devices on their surviving vessels to get past his?  Did they wave lots of white flags on the way to demanding unconditional surrender?

2.  Dany's side really has no leverage from which to demand Cersei's surrender because her forces are depleted, she just lost another dragon which are now very vulnerable to Qyburn's new superduper ballistae and it has evidently been mass-produced as they proudly line the ramparts now.  Qyburn pointed these things out but Tyrion and Dany apparently didn't factor them into their demand, totally ignoring the fact that surrender can only be forced from a position of dominance.

3.  The writers clearly wanted another face-to-face confrontation for drama, so Team Dany is ridiculously close to Team Cersei, in a tactically vulnerable position, not only within range of the ballistae but bowshot as well.  Dany has a tiny force which could be annihilated with missiles or overrun with cavalry, and Drogon is just sitting nearby, also in ballista range.

4. Cersei, the woman who took out all her enemies in King's Landing by detonating wildfire beneath the Sept of Baelor, doesn't take out her enemies here.

5. Tyrion "boldly" walks right up to the gate, virtually throwing himself at the mercy of his sister to appeal to the loving mother inside her while ignoring her entire history of deceit, subversion, treachery, attempted murder against him, and mass murder of the Sept victims, because she's "not a monster". :shocked: 

6. Cersei spares him again, this time for absolutely no reason at all.  

7. Missandei, suddenly vindictive and uncompassionate about the fate of hundreds of thousands of civilians, encourages Dany to burn them all!  :lol:

This was a meeting between morons written by morons, and it might possibly be one of the most poorly contrived scenes in this entire series. 

So yeah, folks are mad or disappointed with the bad writing.  

Edited by Astrotherapist

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In the last years the mantra has practically been "shut up and enjoy the cool". But now that the show got rid of the bad guy and his lore with a shrug, and all the CGI budget goes to a schmuck like Euron randomly depriving the audience of another dragon,  there's nothing left for any group of viewers. Besides, it's the final season, there is no more "it's too early to judge, how do we know that it the next episodes..."

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14 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

I think that many people just expected better results because the writers had an extra year to work on this season with only six episodes to focus upon.  Yet this season is about the same quality as the last one (which was fairly poor), and they have reverted to the same idiotic devices. 

In this episode, Euron made his third, devastating, surprise attack at no cost to himself.  Apparently, he has satellite intel which locates his enemies anywhere on the map, warp drive to get there instantly, cloaking devices and radar so that the Iron Fleet can avoid detection from and target aerial opponents, and ballistic missiles so powerful they can shred other ships like paper!  Why did we ever upgrade to cannons when ballistae are just so bad ass!    

He should not have been able to surprise them this time, not when they know the Iron Fleet is a serious threat to any movement in the waters near King's Landing.  Dragonstone is very near King's Landing and they should have anticipated that the island would have been captured or guarded.  Did they even bother to leave a garrison there before going North?!?  

Nevermind, Euron was made into a diabolus ex machina because the writers had absolutely no idea how to even the odds against Dany's forces except for this, and making Tyrion into a military imbecile.  

The final scene in front of King's Landing is similar to the Dragon pit all over again with so much stupidity about it I can scarcely stand it.

1. Team Dany really can't get to that position in front of King's Landing without sailing past Euron somehow.  Do they even have ships left after that attack? Did they use their own cloaking devices on their surviving vessels to get past his?  Did they wave lots of white flags on the way to demanding unconditional surrender?

2.  Dany's side really has no leverage from which to demand Cersei's surrender because her forces are depleted, she just lost another dragon which are now very vulnerable to Qyburn's new superduper ballistae and it has evidently been mass-produced as they proudly line the ramparts now.  Qyburn pointed these things out but Tyrion and Dany apparently didn't factor them into their demand, totally ignoring the fact that surrender can only be forced from a position of dominance.

3.  The writers clearly wanted another face-to-face confrontation for drama, so Team Dany is ridiculously close to Team Cersei, in a tactically vulnerable position, not only within range of the ballistae but bowshot as well.  Dany has a tiny force which could be annihilated with missiles or overrun with cavalry, and Drogon is just sitting nearby, also in ballista range.

4. Cersei, the woman who took out all her enemies in King's Landing by detonating wildfire beneath the Sept of Baelor, doesn't take out her enemies here.

5. Tyrion "boldly" walks right up to the gate, virtually throwing himself at the mercy of his sister to appeal to the loving mother inside her while ignoring her entire history of deceit, subversion, treachery, attempted murder against him, and mass murder of the Sept victims, because she's "not a monster". :shocked: 

6. Cersei spares him again, this time for absolutely no reason at all.  

7. Missandei, suddenly vindictive and uncompassionate about the fate of hundreds of thousands of civilians, encourages Dany to burn them all!  :lol:

This was a meeting between morons written by morons, and it might possibly be one of the most poorly contrived scenes in this entire series. 

So yeah, folks are mad or disappointed with the bad writing.  

I actually spent half that scene wondering whose dream this was supposed to be. This obviously couldn't really be supposed to be happening.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, 7th-key said:

In the last years the mantra has practically been "shut up and enjoy the cool". But now that the show got rid of the bad guy and his lore with a shrug, and all the CGI budget goes to a schmuck like Euron randomly depriving the audience of another dragon,  there's nothing left for any group of viewers. Besides, it's the final season, there is no more "it's too early to judge, how do we know that it the next episodes..."

That's a big part of the reason, there isn't much time left to pay off all of these characters and stories, and we saw from ep. 3, that there is no pay off at to Jon's resurrection, Night King, WW, Children,  or the prophecies, it is no longer 'too early to judge'....so all the various potentials, choices, theories...are pretty much out the window now, and it turns out that the major choices were always going to be unpopular, but fans may have been okay with a tragic ending if done well, since its not being done well, but very, very badly, and it appears headed to full tragedy mode....finally, people have had it.  There is no more opportunity to 'see how it plays out' and 'trust the show'....the end is nigh. 

Edited by Cas Stark

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On 5/10/2019 at 4:45 AM, GandalfOhWaitWrongSeries said:

I think people are disguising their anger at their own wishes/predictions not coming true as criticism of the writing.

Perhaps some viewers are. I enjoy reading everyone's theories & speculation (the more "out there" the better!) but am not invested in any one outcome in particular. My main gripe? I'd really like eels in casserole with Dornish peppers (as it were), but instead I'm worried I'll get salt beef and boiled turnips.

There are a great many items of unfinished business, unsettled conflicts, dangling plot threads, etc. which cannot possibly be resolved in a satisfying way in the time remaining. As I've mentioned elsewhere in the forum, I do my best to take the show on its own terms, but there have been way too many moments in the narrative that make no sense in context. Too much illogic and inconsistency. This detracts from my enjoyment of those elements that are done well.

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On 5/9/2019 at 8:45 PM, GandalfOhWaitWrongSeries said:

I think people are not angry about the bad writing, they're angry about the story not going in the direction they wanted

I feel you are more right than wrong here. Many people actually dislike S8 because the story and its characters do not develop as they dreamed it would.

This mostly concerns those fans who never wanted to see the ambivalent nature of Daenerys shown from S1 to S8.  This concerns also those fans who wanted the Nightking storyline to be decisive for the whole series.

However, the series showed us visions, prophecys and forshadowing for a lot of issues and I agree with those, who lament that explanations and resolutions to certains issues are lame or unsatisfying. We will probably never really get an explanation for the Children of the Forest, the motivation of the White Walkers, what the three-eyed raven is really about and I am still curious whether they will wrap up Cersei's prophecy and Daenerys' visions in a proper manner.

Secondly, certain aspects of the battles were illogical and simply badly written. Euron's fleet simply cannot have surprised Daenerys flying on a dragon. Personally, I can accept that as minor issue and enjoy the show anyway. But I see how people can be angry about such stupid scenes after having enjoyed S1 to S5 as very thought-through, intelligent, complex, detailled and fitting storyline. 

On the other hand, I agree with you that all the complaints about Jon, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Varys and so on are mostly moaning about a possible and believable development, because they simply don't like the kind of development. 

I enjoy S8 and look forward to watching the last two episodes. Of course a series is more satisfying if it ends in a satisfying way with our beloved characters somehow having a good and fulfilling arc.

 

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