Mosi Mynn Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said: Until a GE, you would want the most sensible Tory you can find in charge of the country and that is clearly Rory. There is no downside for him from talking to Gove, so he's doing everything right here, but fingers crossed. He's the only one out of the whole sorry bunch that sounds intelligent and engaging. And seems fairly honest. Of course, that's probably because he's not expecting to win - but it would be refreshing if he was genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said: He's the only one out of the whole sorry bunch that sounds intelligent and engaging. And seems fairly honest. Of course, that's probably because he's not expecting to win - but it would be refreshing if he was genuine. He is. But like all the other candidates he also seems to mostly be advocating for something that seems unworkable. Getting a new deal seems just as unlikely as getting the current deal through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosi Mynn Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 It would be helpful to know why he thinks a new or re-worked deal would be approved by the EU - who have repeated variants of non-negotiable in every language by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 33 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said: It would be helpful to know why he thinks a new or re-worked deal would be approved by the EU - who have repeated variants of non-negotiable in every language by now. I'm more interested in why he thinks he can get the current deal through parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Rather predictably, none of the candidates (even Stewart) had a credible plan on tackling the climate emergency. 11 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/113593709/uk-judge-sentences-teen-for-abhorrent-post-on-prince-harry Interesting. Disgusting and abhorrent, absolutely. But being terrorist material and encouraging terrorism? I dunno. It's hate speech without a doubt, so if there are hate speech laws I think I'd have rather seen it dealt with there as opposed to terrorism. Or it can be simple criminal incitement, without necessarily getting the T-word involved. I'm all for more white supremacist crimes to be treated as terrorism, but it's still got to be clearly terrorism. It can't just be a choice between freedom of speech or terrorism, there's got to be other offences in between. There is a clear situation in law where you can't wait until a crime has been committed before stopping it, that's why we have conspiracy to commit murder etc, not just the crime itself. In this case the guy made a terrorist claim and call to arms and shared it publicly, and states that he wouldn't have had a problem if it had led to violence. Remember that four years ago a Member of Parliament in this country was shot to death for "betraying the people." So yes, incitement to terrorism is absolutely the correct response in this case. Quote He is. But like all the other candidates he also seems to mostly be advocating for something that seems unworkable. Getting a new deal seems just as unlikely as getting the current deal through. Yes, this is a weakness that all the candidates have. The current deal is the only deal on the table. Either we accept it, try to fiddle with the edges of it, or call a new election or Ref3 as a way of breaking the deadlock. I have a strong suspicion that both Johnson and Stewart are considering calling a general election if they get in (Johnson, depressingly, could win such an election), whilst Hunt, Javid and Gove would keep kicking the can down the road. This was clear some considerable time ago, the only difference the leadership election will make is that the leading candidate is happy to nose-dive this country off a cliff edge if it means he can put "Prime Minister" on his CV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Even if there was a GE and Johnson won it, I'm guessing the margins would still be slight and we'd be in almost the same position we are in now.. just wasting more and more time and dragging everything out. I think the only certainty right now is that Brexit is going to be dragging on for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Some of the polls are suggesting that with Johnson as PM, the Tories would win by a larger margin, certainly enough to form a majority government with more chance of getting Johnson's plan - whatever the hell that is - through Parliament. Of course, if Johnson called an election based primarily around Brexit and didn't address other issues like housing, the NHS, policing etc, he could get taken to the cleaners by Labour (as happened in 2017), although Labour don't have the "Brexit is ages away so we can still be vague about" ability they had back in 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosi Mynn Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 46 minutes ago, Werthead said: Rather predictably, none of the candidates (even Stewart) had a credible plan on tackling the climate emergency. I saw that, and it was disappointing. Erin is quite right - and quite right to call them all on it - this can't be a "We'll do this in the future" thing, or a "Ooh look, we cut carbon emissions in London a few years back" thing. It requires a fundamental, brutal and brave overhaul of how our society functions. Starting point: reconsidering extra runways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 12 hours ago, ants said: If they did that, and it was achieved, would the rest of the conservatives and DUP actually support a vote of no-confidence given its occurred? And that an election just as you've started a hard Brexit would be terrible timing? I think they'd suck it up and try and hope that the years until the next GE aren't the disaster they think it will be. It doesn't take that many. The DUP are proper crazy, so they are for no deal. From the conservatives, Clarke has come out and pretty much said, he would instantly vote down any goverment that tried force a no-deal. He won't be up for re-election (I think), so the Tories have very little leverage over him. He said he had talked to a few other Tories, who would vote with him (check the Guardian link in the old thread). Anyway, it all comes down, how many Tory moderates have some sort of conscience and spine to vote down their own goverment. The Tory party won't survive no-deal anyway. Whether they vote it down now, or when the next GE is coming. The economy won't have recovered from no-deal by then. So their politcal career would be over in any case. 6 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said: Boris, please. Check above. It doesn't really matter, which of them wins this horrible casting show. Brexit will eat any future PM alive anyway. So you might as well hope for the craziest of the bunch to pull thru, and at least take the entire conservative party with him. 15 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: Interesting. Disgusting and abhorrent, absolutely. But being terrorist material and encouraging terrorism? I dunno. It's hate speech without a doubt, so if there are hate speech laws I think I'd have rather seen it dealt with there as opposed to terrorism. Or it can be simple criminal incitement, without necessarily getting the T-word involved. I'm all for more white supremacist crimes to be treated as terrorism, but it's still got to be clearly terrorism. It can't just be a choice between freedom of speech or terrorism, there's got to be other offences in between. I am probably the only one here, who found the irony of a British junior racist by the name of Michal Szewczuk in the midst of those filthy Eastern European immigrants mildly amusing. Fucking Poles, even taking away the jobs from racist online trolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 So our next PM is 100% going to be a fucking nut job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 17 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: So our next PM is 100% going to be a fucking nut job. We knew from the start it was going to be Boris, it's just a case of by how much. Stewart was far from a perfect candidate, but he was at least sane. Of those who's left, there is not one who is manifestly qualified to be a politician, let alone Prime Minister of this country. I suspect in a few weeks we'll all be saying that hey now, May wasn't that bad after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Pretty upsetting but it makes no difference really. Stewart was always going to go down against the members in a final contest with Boris even if he got past MPs. And for all that I really liked Stewart he was an eloquent an reasonable defender of the withdrawal agreement and thereby someone who may actually have had a greater chance of bringing about Brexit than blundering and distrusted oaf Johnson does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: It doesn't take that many. The DUP are proper crazy, so they are for no deal. From the conservatives, Clarke has come out and pretty much said, he would instantly vote down any goverment that tried force a no-deal. He won't be up for re-election (I think), so the Tories have very little leverage over him. He said he had talked to a few other Tories, who would vote with him (check the Guardian link in the old thread). Anyway, it all comes down, how many Tory moderates have some sort of conscience and spine to vote down their own goverment. The Tory party won't survive no-deal anyway. Whether they vote it down now, or when the next GE is coming. The economy won't have recovered from no-deal by then. So their politcal career would be over in any case. If the Conservatives disappear, they'll simply be replaced by someone else on the right of the political spectrum, in this case, probably the Brexit Party. 40-45% of the population are right wing, and a similar proportion are left wing, and there will always be a party to represent each group, even if it's not the same party as at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, SeanF said: If the Conservatives disappear, they'll simply be replaced by someone else on the right of the political spectrum, in this case, probably the Brexit Party. Right... You know, right to the political centre is a very broad spectrum. I don't have a problem with conservatism or conservatives as such. I even keep a conservative friend (the same way other people keep a gay friend or a friend of colour, but my conservative friend actually exists). However, where I do draw a line is when conservatives thru in their lot of racists and biggots. The GOP in the US being the most prominent example of a party to the right of the political centre, going all the way out to the far right. I view the current Tory party in a similar light. Those parties deserve to get squashed. Now then, having all that said. I wonder how many (moderate) conservatives will also draw a line at some arbitary point. I'd hope quite a few do, and look elsewhere than the Brexit party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Hedge Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 10 votes less? Don't know why I bothered with this process. Clearly all about backroom deals and tactical voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosi Mynn Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said: So our next PM is 100% going to be a fucking nut job. It's so depressing. What do the Tories see in Johnson? He's amoral, self-centred and incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Mosi Mynn said: What do the Tories see in Johnson? He's amoral, self-centred and incompetent. I think you answered your own question there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said: Right... You know, right to the political centre is a very broad spectrum. I don't have a problem with conservatism or conservatives as such. I even keep a conservative friend (the same way other people keep a gay friend or a friend of colour, but my conservative friend actually exists). However, where I do draw a line is when conservatives thru in their lot of racists and biggots. The GOP in the US being the most prominent example of a party to the right of the political centre, going all the way out to the far right. I view the current Tory party in a similar light. Those parties deserve to get squashed. Now then, having all that said. I wonder how many (moderate) conservatives will also draw a line at some arbitary point. I'd hope quite a few do, and look elsewhere than the Brexit party. I disagree with that. The UK Conservatives are pretty socially liberal. Not just more liberal than US Republicans but also more liberal than parties like Partido Popolar or Venestre, let alone Eastern European parties. Supporting Brexit doesn't make them far right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 If it were just Brexit, but there was also the hostile enviroment bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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