UK Politics: Another vote, just not for anyone who might change their minds

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

If it were just Brexit, but there was also the hostile enviroment bit.

If that's the yardstick then the Danish Social Democrats or Gordon Brown's government would count as far right.

[Deedles]

Got to say, I miss @Hereward. And not just for the tractor porn. Wonder what he’d say about all this. Must be gutting.

[The Anti-Targ]

2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I think you answered your own question there.

That was a gimme, but it had to be done.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

57 minutes ago, Deedles said:

Got to say, I miss @Hereward. And not just for the tractor porn. Wonder what he’d say about all this. Must be gutting.

Did something happen to him? 

[williamjm]

18 hours ago, ants said:

That assumes that they return parliament.  There is some talk that if a true Brexiter gets in, they can make sure parliament doesn't sit until October and achieve a hard Brexit that way. 

If they did that, and it was achieved, would the rest of the conservatives and DUP actually support a vote of no-confidence given its occurred?  And that an election just as you've started a hard Brexit would be terrible timing? I think they'd suck it up and try and hope that the years until the next GE aren't the disaster they think it will be. 

If I remember correctly the new PM could only afford to lose the support of 3 MPs to survive a vote of no-confidence. I think there are enough Tory MPs who would feel strongly enough about either Brexit or the idea of suspending Parliament to vote against that.

It would also be the hardest of hard Brexits given that the Government would be unable to pass any legislation to deal with any of the implications of leaving (or any other legislation).

9 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Even if there was a GE and Johnson won it, I'm guessing the margins would still be slight and we'd be in almost the same position we are in now.. just wasting more and more time and dragging everything out. 

I think the only certainty right now is that Brexit is going to be dragging on for some time.

I'd  strongly suspect an election would lead to another hung parliament, although it's difficult to predict how the various parties would do. The polls recently have been suggesting that there are four parties within about 10 points of each other which is going to make predictions different since it's so different to what usually happens.

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

Some of the polls are suggesting that with Johnson as PM, the Tories would win by a larger margin, certainly enough to form a majority government with more chance of getting Johnson's plan - whatever the hell that is - through Parliament. Of course, if Johnson called an election based primarily around Brexit and didn't address other issues like housing, the NHS, policing etc, he could get taken to the cleaners by Labour (as happened in 2017), although Labour don't have the "Brexit is ages away so we can still be vague about" ability they had back in 2017.

While I think Boris winning any election is certainly a possibility, I'm a bit wary about how useful polls now would be, since we don't know how Boris is going to claim he can achieve Brexit. A lot depends on how much he can convince leavers that he can deliver their sacred unicorns, if they aren't convinced then Farage could take a lot of votes off the Tories.

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Did something happen to him? 

I think he might be too unhappy about what his party has turned into to want to take part in this thread any more.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

If that's the yardstick then the Danish Social Democrats or Gordon Brown's government would count as far right. 

Let's say I have some severe reservations about the Danish Social Democrats turn to the right, and I somehow doubt that any of Labour's policies under Brown were as horrendous as the hostile enviroment policy invented and promoted by then home secretary May.

Since we are playing a game of whataboutism.

You are aware that the Pickaninny and Letterboxes guy is about to become the standard bearer of the Tory party? I mean, his racist views expressed in his own very own racist terms is apparently no problem for the Tory MPs, and presumably even less so for its membership.

Ok, the average person needs to use google to find the definition of pickaninny, while Mexican rapists at the door is a more crude and less sophisticated (for lack of a better word) way to get that point across. But then again, Boris is very little more than Trump with a dictionary.

[Heartofice]

4 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Boris is very little more than Trump with a dictionary.

I think we need to be careful before we start saying things like this. Its an easy comparison, but its a bit lazy. Whatever you think of what Boris has said in the past its not the same as calling Mexicans rapists or saying there should be a ban on Muslims.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Let's say I have some severe reservations about the Danish Social Democrats turn to the right, and I somehow doubt that any of Labour's policies under Brown were as horrendous as the hostile enviroment policy invented and promoted by then home secretary May.

Since we are playing a game of whataboutism.

You are aware that the Pickaninny and Letterboxes guy is about to become the standard bearer of the Tory party? I mean, his racist views expressed in his own very own racist terms is apparently no problem for the Tory MPs, and presumably even less so for its membership.

Ok, the average person needs to use google to find the definition of pickaninny, while Mexican rapists at the door is a more crude and less sophisticated (for lack of a better word) way to get that point across. But then again, Boris is very little more than Trump with a dictionary.

IMHO, Johnson is amoral, and unstrustworthy.  He'll say anything to provoke a response.  But, I don't view him as an extremist.

If he gets through to the final round, I'll vote for The Saj.

[Mosi Mynn]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

IMHO, Johnson is amoral, and unstrustworthy.  He'll say anything to provoke a response.  But, I don't view him as an extremist.

If he gets through to the final round, I'll vote for The Saj.

I don't think he's an extremist either.  But I think the comparison with Trump (above) is not too far off the mark, because I don't think Trump is an extremist either.  Extremists' views are usually out there and obvious.  Both these men are, as you say, amoral, and are just after power.  They have no convictions or personal beliefs, that I can see.  What's terrifying about that is that I can see both allying themselves with people who may be extremists if such an alliance allows them to grasp/hold on to power.

[SeanF]

It's looking like it will Boris v Gove, now.

[Ser Hedge]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

IMHO, Johnson is amoral, and unstrustworthy.  He'll say anything to provoke a response.  But, I don't view him as an extremist.

If he gets through to the final round, I'll vote for The Saj.

I know I said I liked Saj's backstory (and I still do), but after following the contest more closely this week, it seems he's really just another politician who will say whatever gets him by. A former Remainer who now wants to out-Raab the Demonic one on Brexit? Really?

I won't hold his hard-line immigration soundbites from his stint at home against him though, he was put in a bad position there after May and Rudd's heartless policies. And it's pretty hard as a son of immigrants to be a Tory home secretary in this current environment. The slightest misstep and most of your party will think you are a soft touch. That's a lose-lose job and I don't blame him for trying to get the hell out of there and bag no. 11. 

What I don't get is who his pre-Raab supporters were. I would have thought some would have been moderates and was hoping they would have switched to Rory as he became increasingly viable and Saj tried to go for the Demonic votes, but clearly I had no clue After yesterday, I'm thinking he is just being propped up there as a token state school, non-Oxbridge, minority candidate into the last 3 for optics. And maybe to be take out Gove first.

Edit:

Should've checked the news first before typing the last two sentences 

[Heartofice]

Javid was happy to trot out his backstory at every given opportunity. I never saw him as anything other than a politician willing to say whatever it takes to get elected. 

I'm still amazed that anyone is voting for Hunt or Gove. I mean I get Johnson's cult of personality thing, but Gove and Hunt are personality black holes, so they don't even have that going for them.

[HexMachina]

58 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I don't think he's an extremist either.  But I think the comparison with Trump (above) is not too far off the mark, because I don't think Trump is an extremist either.  Extremists' views are usually out there and obvious.  Both these men are, as you say, amoral, and are just after power.  They have no convictions or personal beliefs, that I can see.  What's terrifying about that is that I can see both allying themselves with people who may be extremists if such an alliance allows them to grasp/hold on to power.

I wonder how far into the past we have to delve for a PM who did just that...

[Mosi Mynn]

28 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I wonder how far into the past we have to delve for a PM who did just that...

Too true.

If I'm being very generous I could see that May allied with the ERG and the DUP to try and get Brexit through, rather than just to hold on to power.  But I have to squint a lot to do that.

I think the mop-haired twins (or the people behind them) will do anything for power.

[Loge]

So somebody has posted photos of the interior of Boris Johnson's car: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7152985/Inside-Boris-Johnsons-litter-strewn-Toyota-Previa.html Nice.

[Werthead]

Quote

 

I think we need to be careful before we start saying things like this. Its an easy comparison, but its a bit lazy. Whatever you think of what Boris has said in the past its not the same as calling Mexicans rapists or saying there should be a ban on Muslims.

 

He's called Muslim women "letter boxes." He's (quite angrily) called investigations into historic sex abuse cases "a waste of money." He's repeatedly described Africans in inferior terms, using racist terminology and saying they have "watermelon smiles." He has said it would fine for the former European colonial powers to take back control of their African colonies. In his editorial roles, he has permitted the posting of articles praising eugenics. He described the entire nation of Papua New Guinea as taking part in orgies of cannibalism and ritual killings. He called the President of Turkey an actual goatfucker. He has said that speed limit laws are a waste of time.

So far he has not put forward a policy comparable to banning Muslims, but he has made it clear he has no respect or time for them. Calling the population of an entire nation cannibals and the President of an ally (however highly unreliable) a serial sexual abuser of goats is certainly comparable to the Mexicans as rapists thing.

I don't think Boris is as outrightly stupid as Trump, but I think he is dangerous in another direction, of being blase, reckless and heedless of the consequences, as he is a traditional Tory in that the word "consequences" means nothing to him, as he knows if everything goes really badly wrong with Brexit, he can move to the United States and live off the speaking circuit for the rest of his days with no problem whatsoever.

[Werthead]

And it's going to be Hunt versus Boris in the final showdown.

Fucking hell.

[Maithanet]

Is there any meaningful difference between Hunt and Johnson in terms of approach and what they'll be trying to accomplish?

[Which Tyler]

9 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Is there any meaningful difference between Hunt and Johnson in terms of approach and what they'll be trying to accomplish?

Hunt wants to sell the NHS because health care for poor folks is bad.

Boris will sell the NHS because money for rich people is good.

 

Both had the word "integrity" redacted fro their dictionaries

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Loge said:

So somebody has posted photos of the interior of Boris Johnson's car: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7152985/Inside-Boris-Johnsons-litter-strewn-Toyota-Previa.html Nice.

How little do MPs get paid? I only make like 45k a year and my car is way nicer than that hunk of junk.